Why won't the major ammunition companies come out with 45-70 + P loads ?

W

WIN1886

New member
Just wondering is all....I know that there are a lot of older designed rifles out their that are still being used but most modern 45-70 cal rifles like the Marlin 1895 , Winchester 1886 modern version , Ruger no. 1 , Winchester & Browning Hi Wall single shots , etc. can easily handle higher pressures and they could put warning labels against using the ammo in old trapdoors and such ! It be no different than other cal rifles or handguns that are either okay with +P ammo or not ! I'd also like to see more bullet weight options....some major ammo makers seem stuck on the 300 grain load which is fine but again more options would make the 45-70 more versatile and I think more popular ! Sorry about the rambling....I just like this cal. a lot and yes , the best ammo comes by handloading but I don't always have the time and you might need to pick up a box while on a hunting trip sometime ! ;) The specialized ammo makers offering hot 45-70 ammo is priced high so maybe more competition would help lower the price or at least offer more available options !
 
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No doubt , but I still think this is sad.....most hunters and target shooters at least that I know are pretty educated about their firearm selection and know the limits of each ! It is very doubtful that a hunter selecting a 45-70 rifle will buy an old civil war era trapdoor over a Marlin 1895 or other modern version rifle for an upcoming moose hunt that wants to shoot hot loads or at least have the option to ! Then again I'm sure there are a number of trapdoor owners that love the mild loads ( like I do for the most part) or even load up only with blackpowder for a more nostalgia effect ! I give most hunters and shooters the benefit of the doubt of knowing the limits of their firearms but I guess the smallest % of those that don't is very possible but not unlike other firearms that are not designed for +P loads ! I don't blame the major companies for having liability worries but it would be a nice option for the modern hunter !
 
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People don't read warning labels or anything else ! That's always been the case.
You can go to premium bullet loads like the Win 300 gr Nosler Partition or the Corbon DPX 300. Buffalo Bore and Garrett make good rounds but I don't know the price.
What are you hunting and at what range ? Do you really need hot loads ? I found the 300 factory loads too soft for my taste so I use the Win NP -much better. I hunt fairly close but it should be good for out to 200 yds for deer or black bear.
 
I've got three different loads that I use for my .45-70s. One, a black powder load I shoot in my Sharps. Another load I have duplicates the ballistics and pressures of the BP load, but with smokeless, then I've got a load that uses 4895 and a 405 cast bullet that will rattle your teeth. I don't load anything to Ruger #1 pressures, so that would be a fourth load.

If the factories started loading a hot .45-70 load, some jazzbo would drop it into his trapdoor and blow chunks of steel all over the line. While I agree with Win1886 that most of us are rational in our practices, there are enough idiots out there, and enough un-educated gunners to make life interesting for the rest of us. The factories have decided, rightfully, to make ammo that will work in any gun in that caliber, and that limits them to pressures that most of us routinely surpass in good rifles with modern steels.
 
The whitetail deer I have harvested so far with my 45-70 cal rifles has been done with mild factory loads of either 300 gr or 405 gr bullet weight ! All of them were put down with one shot and most do not go far or have dropped right at the point of impact ! I typically hunt in forest areas where shots are normally less than 75 yards ! I am very satisfied with the loads I use...however , having more options would be fun and maybe necessary depending on what your game is or where you are hunting ! I appreciate the feedback...it just puzzles me that the major ammo co. have not offered +P 45-70 loads by now but liability trumps ....its all good !
 
I suspect that the relative unpopularity of the 45-70 is a bigger factor than the liability. Many manufacturers produce ammo that will blow up weaker guns. It's not JUST because of liability.

They're like, "Hey, let's build this hot 45-70 +p round!" and the dude across the table is like, "Sweet! What's the demographic!" and the 3rd Geeky Beancounter guy goes, "Well, there's like.... Those 5 dudes on The Firing Line that would use it...":D;)
 
I suspect that the relative unpopularity of the 45-70 is a bigger factor than the liability. Many manufacturers produce ammo that will blow up weaker guns. It's not JUST because of liability.

They're like, "Hey, let's build this hot 45-70 +p round!" and the dude across the table is like, "Sweet! What's the demographic!" and the 3rd Geeky Beancounter guy goes, "Well, there's like.... Those 5 dudes on The Firing Line that would use it..."
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I agree with Peetza on this on. If there was enough demand, the big ammo makers would offer up +P loads. If liability was to soley blame, the small companies wouldn't make them either.

Make that 6 dudes by the way.....
 
Buzz beat me to the punch on that one. I have a box of brass that a guy left at the range. They are head stamped as .45-70 Magnum.

They offer a couple of bullet weights. I will try to dig the box out later. It is time to crash right now for me. 3 am comes early in the morning.
 
There's a little group called SAAMI that sets pressure standards for the small arms and ammunition industry, and all industry members have agreed to accept those standards and work within them. SAAMI says that .45-70 Government ammo should be loaded so as not to exceed 28,000 psi (most factory .45-70 ammo is loaded to much lower pressure than that), gunmakers says OK, and design rifles with those pressure limits in mind. So, you want 42,000 psi .45-70 ammo, you make it. If your gun goes in 150 different directions when you fire it, the manufacturer says "That's too bad, hows about you buy another rifle?".

If, on the other hand, SAAMI said its OK to produce factory ammo to a higher specified pressure, all those older guns produced for lower pressure ammo just became a liability issue. Liability issues make the lawyers rich, not the gunmakers. So gunmakers produce firearms chambered for a cartridge called the .458 Winchester Magnum for those enthusiasts who want a bigger bang.
 
Buffalo Bore makes hot loads only meant for modern made guns.

Another stout gun that can handle loads that wasn't mentioned is H&R/New England rifles. I own one, bought it used for $200.
 
They did, it is called the 450 Marlin. The 450 is simply a hot loaded 45-70 that is designed so it won't fit into guns not up to the higher pressures.
 
I suspect that the relative unpopularity of the 45-70 is a bigger factor than the liability. Many manufacturers produce ammo that will blow up weaker guns. It's not JUST because of liability.
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Actually...the 45-70 is more popular today than ever.... I believe liability issues are the cause....Buffalo Bore and others list certain guns to fire their ammo.....
 
I don't see why a .45-70 +P load would be any more of a liability than, say, a .38 Super +P or a .38 Special +P or +P+.

Tons of older guns out there that will chamber those rounds but in which it could be an unsafe situation.

Remember when Winchester brought out the .375 Winchester? It would handily fit into older guns chambered for .38-55.

Apparently not too many fears of liability there.
 
Mike..I don't hear of 38's blowing apart with plus P loads..and even tho a 375 win may chamber in a 38-55..it is not actually chambered for that round....

Trapdoors are actually chambered for the 45-70 and I understand it may not be pretty if U fire a hot round from one....
 
The range where I used to shoot has a display cabinet of revolvers, all .38s I'm sure, that were blown up. But I can't tell you anything about the loads they were using. I also understand there are no standards for a +P+ load. It's "off the charts." I also had the impression that all .38 Supers were +P. The non-+P is merely a .38 ACP. But I also understand that some do load .38 Supers "hot."

I've owned three .45-70 rifles and the first one was an H&R trapdoor reproduction. The steel may or may not have been better than an original but the design was the same. But I thought the regular everyday load for the .45-70 was enough. When I went to buy my next .45-70, which was a Ruger No. 1, the shop also had one in .458 magnum. If I'd wanted more than a .45-70, I could have went home with that one. They had to order the .45-70.

Even though I like the round, I really don't believe it's all that popular.
 
I don't know about other places..but here in TX..the 45-70 is very popular....Mainly in Marlin lever actions....I know of a number of hunters that actively hunt with them....I think it has a lot to do with the hog problems we have here....Big bullets and multiple rounds make a fun combination for hogs....(nuthin like hearin a loud whack! on a big boar)
 
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