Why won't my 9mm case fit in the bullet checker?

Decap clean sort resize

I buy bulk range pickup brass on occasion. After decapping, and cleaning well, I sort by headstamp. This enables me to immediately remove Blazer, USA, Freedom, and other brass of suspect suitability. I like CBC, S&B, GBW and Starline (but you won't find Starline in range pickup). I keep all my WW together, all my Major manufacturers together. That way I can load 500 identical WW cases. I also end up with R-P, FC and few others in a mixed pile or bin. These get reloaded once and left at the usually indoor ranges where I cannot retrieve them.
Differences between headstamps should be minor, but when you isolate large groups, and work on those, one group at a time, you know that any difficulty you may have is not specific to variance between headstamps.
 
Attention all:

jetblueshooter has three parallel threads going. If you haven't been following all three, you probably missed the fact that he has been test loading empty (dummy) rounds just to fine-tune his press settings. Because he was loading dummies, he didn't want to remove the spent primers so he skipped the resizing/decapping die completely. So the reason his rounds wouldn't fit the case checker AND the reason his bullets could be spun in the case by hand after loading was that he was loading new bullets into fired, expanded, UN-sized cases.

It appears that his problems have been solved with that realization. We'll leave this thread open in case there's something new to add, but please don't post any more suggestions that aren't applicable in the light of the fact that the problem was due to loading un-sized cases.
 
Guys - Some excellent information you all provided. Aguila is correct, I had another thread regarding a bullet alignment issue that went away and then it morphed into other problems that I did not think were "related" LOL. So, inevitably it gave birth to this thread. Still glad I created this thread otherwise it would have been way too long!

Couple of comments;

@Unclenick &HiBC --> Yes, you are right.. I believe RCBS and I've also seen redding both actually get the end of the die "very close" to the shell plate but not actually touching. But my problem is (you are gonna laugh)... is that the die itself has ran out of thread space on the Hornady 5-stage press... so it's almost touching the shell holder... AND it's out of thread! I'm surprised about this one for sure. I was able to get the lock nut to hold on that bit of that die.

@Pete2 --> Yes, I heard that the plunk test is the one that counts. Shooting a Glock, everything seems to plunk LOL, it's very forgiving. I'm going to have one followup question regarding this below.

@Polarbear --> Okay! So you must be THE ONLY GUY on this board that knows about the process you mentioned. I have brought this up before it's not popular. Well, well well... SO... you basically explained to me WHY mine never worked! You switched from the FCD to the Sizing Die. So now, I don't know if I need this anymore. But I can see how people would use this on a separate press and just slam through a thousand cases.

@Marco Califo -> Thank you, yes I'm gonna separate all this brass. I did not know that Blazer was "suspect". Maybe I need to get ONE brand if I can that is good in the future. Not sure how many Blazers I have.

New thing I discovered --> I don't think it's my imagination, I did spray a few with the Hornday case lube and it seemed to cut down the force and friction by 50%. None of you mentioned this, not sure if anyone else does this or not.

Okay, so back to my original question on the bullet checker. Now that it's actually working (imagine that!)... I'm checking this and seeing that the bullet may fall a tad below or even with the top of the bullet checker. It's such a small difference, probably the thickness of a fingernail. So when I called SPEER to get the COL it was 1.135". I asked him about tolerance. He said "You can go a little longer, but never shorter." So, I've been careful not to allow it to go below. Any danger here? I gotta tell ya... I think I need to invent a way to measure COL other than a lousy micrometer would make it a lot easier to measure these things.
 
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jetblueshooter said:
New thing I discovered --> I don't think it's my imagination, I did spray a few with the Hornday case lube and it seemed to cut down the force and friction by 50%. None of you mentioned this, not sure if anyone else does this or not.
Click to expand...
I assume you are referring to One-Shot aerosol case lube? Yes, I use it. I didn't mention it because it's not necessary with carbide dies and I didn't want to derail the diagnosis of your problems with extraneous information. I think most reloaders don't bother with it, but it does greatly reduce the force needed to resize cases, and I use it for just that reason. If you have non-carbide dies, using case lube will allow the sizing die to live a lot longer (or so I have read).
 
I'm wondering why the OP only has one thread left on his die. My LNL-AP with 9mm RCBS dies has the threads flush with the top of the nut.
I'm wondering if he has his press mounted to close to the bench and the linkage is hitting the bench before he tops out the ram.
I did that when I first set mine up 12 years ago.
What he is saying about not having enough threads on the die doesn't sound right.
Lee dies are this way with Hornady AP's but not RCBS dies.
He is also using an AP if it has five stations and you can't hurt the carbide ring in a Progressive press by preloading the resizing die, due to the flex in the shell plate and hub. That problem applies to single stage presses.
You also can't see when the die contacts the shell plate because of that station being in the back of the press where you can get a good look at it. I put the ram up, screw the die down until it touches, they give it another quarter turn. The die threads are now flush with the top of the nut.
 
I've been informed by Unclenick my concerns about a carbide die contacting the shellholder may be "Old School" correct,but with modern dies,its generally a non issue. OK. Unclenick is certainly credible.

But because I'm Old School,consider this.as far as a carbide die is concerned,its a straight walled case. We are not in the least concerned about a shoulder bump as we would be with a bottleneck rifle case.
Ordinarily,with even centerfire high pressure rifle cases,case head expansion of .001 is regarded as a high pressure sign,and primers start getting loose.

So,in a theoretical sense,the fact a carbide sizer does not size the .125 for the deck height of the shell holder,and it does not size the length of the lead in chamfer on he carbide ring,...I get that . Maybe,at most,the rear .200 in (probably more like ,187) of the cartridge case
Does not get sized down. Do we agree? Rim,extractor groove,plus the solid portion of the case head.mostly.
If we start with a Zig Zag cigarettes' rolling paper at aprox .001 thickness,on up to more common paper at .002 or .003 in thick,as a feeler gage when running a carbide die down to contact the shellholder,what could he drawback be?
As far as taking the stress off the die,a ,001 ZigZag is as good as a flat washer.
"Any" is enough. What will be gained by going .001 deeper?Or .003 deeper?
Given he choice,if it costs nothing,why not set up the die with a slip of paper?
It decreases stress on equipment
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JB. You get to work out your own process. Dirt,range grit,primer pocket residue, can rapidly wear your dies,and generally gunk up the smooth operation of your progressive press.

You may do things differently,but if I may suggest,from your bulk nasty range brass,run it first through a universal decap die. Lee sells one cheap.
They don't rub on the case.so the die isn't getting worn.

Some 9mm has crimped primers. Military ammo. You have not started priming cases yet. You can feel crimped primers decapping them. They are harder. They are also harder on decapping pins and spindles. Bend your spindle or pin of an RCBS or Redding die,you need replacement parts.The Lee die is tough,and you can get parts up front.

Anyway,primers out, your tumbler media has access to the pockets.

Now,you can tumble clean your brass. Cleaning processes have evolved some. Many folks are using pins,lemon shine,dish soap,etc. You can get to that over time. For now,dry media like corn cob,walnut hulls,etc will do.

You don;t need polished and shiny. You do need grit free.

If you find crimped primers,set them aside. Thats a whole new thread!! And more tools. They just won't prime for you,and will be a nightmare in your progressive.You can fix and use them.Later.

So now you can start your process with clean,sorted,decapped and non-crimped primer pockets.

A little spray lube takes load off your equiptment.Pins,links,etc. Why not? Not a lot. Spritz and shake it in the bin. Let it dry 20 minutes or so.

If you have room,a cheep single stage press as a supplement is good for the decapping routine. You don't have to do that in your progressive. A supplemental single stage is useful with a progressive press.

And you might use it with an RCBS primer crimp removal tool. There are other options, like a Dillon Primer Pocket Swage (over $100)but the RCBS is among the more affordable.
 
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HiBC said:
A ittle spray lube takes load off your equiptment. Why not? Not a lot. Spritz and shake it in the bin. Let it dry 20 minutes or so.
Click to expand...
If he is using Hornady One-Shot aerosol (which I think he is, since he mentioned "spraying" it), there's no wait for drying. By the time you put the cap back on the can and put the can on the shelf, the stuff is dry. It's a dry film lubricant -- completely non-messy, and no need to wipe it off after loading. I've been using it for years on straight-wall handgun loads, and I wouldn't be without it.
 
Cool. I have not used the Hornady.

Most spray sizing lubes are lanolin suspended in alcohol carrier.

Many folks have learned the hard way that the lube does not work so well before the carrier fully evaporates.

In a non-carbide die,they get rewarded with a case stuck in the die,and the rim ripped off the case. Its a lot like forgetting to lube a case .Thats a stoppage,too!

What we call a "stoppage" Bent,broken decapping pins and /or spindles are also "stoppages" Then you have to find or order parts. Some of us pre-order spare decapping pins and spindles. We already learned about stoppages.
 
jb....You toucher on another subject . Once again...you need a couple of loading manuals for the broad subject of reloading.

Okay, so back to my original question on the bullet checker. Now that it's actually working (imagine that!)... I'm checking this and seeing that the bullet may fall a tad below or even with the top of the bullet checker. It's such a small difference, probably the thickness of a fingernail. So when I called SPEER to get the COL it was 1.135". I asked him about tolerance. He said "You can go a little longer, but never shorter." So, I've been careful not to allow it to go below. Any danger here? I gotta tell ya... I think I need to invent a way to measure COL other than a lousy micrometer would make it a lot easier to measure these things.
Click to expand...

There is some important stuff here. Suppose you take 4 different 147 gr 9mm bullets. One a round nose hardball,one a flat point truncated cone,a big cavity hollowpoint,and an average hollowpoint.
All 147 gr.

Now,measure the lengths of the bullets,tip to base. They will be different. Thats point one.

One aspect of carridge overall length is mechanical. What will fit in the magazine? What will feed smoothly up the ramp into the chamber?
Bullet tip,or ogive shapes vary,and so cartridge overall lengths may vary.

But there is another important length. It has to do with pressures. Actually with the internal volume of the combustion chamber.

When the primer fires,that volume influences the heat and pressure that ignites the powder,and then how much room there is for the powder gas to expand. In other words,the internal volume has an effect on pressure.

The internal volume is controlled by the bullet's base. You can measure the length of the cartridge over the bullet's tip,but for pressure purposes,from there,by way of the bullet length,you establish where the bullet base is.

The bullet base determines combustion chamber volume. Thats why your tech told you "Never shorter" And thats one reason why not just any 147 gr bullet will do for a given data set.

AND,nothing personal with AB, He may have a point that the niche market of bullseye shooters may use the crimp die to just iron out the flare,the larger number of general use shooters are better off crimping to recommended spec to prevent bullet setback during feed.
A general rule of thumb:

Bullet diameter plus (two times neck thickness) would give you a number for zero crimp. We want .002 per side,or .004 total crimp.

So Bullet dia + two times neck thickness ,then minus .004 will give you a diameter at the case mouth you can set your taper crimp to deliver.

Deep seating a handgun bullet,whether by feeding setback or in the press with the seater die can significantly increase pressure.
 
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HiBC said:
AND,nothing personal with AB, He may have a point that the niche market of bullseye shooters may use the crimp die to just iron out the flare,the larger number of general use shooters are better off crimping to recommended spec to prevent bullet setback during feed.
Click to expand...
As it happens, one of my friends over on the M1911.org forum is a bullseye shooter, but he's also a data and measurement freak. He has done extensive research on bullet setback, and what his experiments have shown is that he gets the least bullet setback when the "crimp" is only sufficient to remove the flare. He has posted the results of his setback testing, and they clearly show that adding any crimp after bullet seating actually works against the inherent bullet retention provided by the friction between the case wall and the bullet base.

In fact, as a result of these experiments, he has gone so far as to take Lee factory crimp dies and cut the carbide resizing ring out of them. For semi-autos, there should be no "crimp," there should only be "flare removal." Look at factory loaded ammunition. Get a magnifying glass and a good straightedge, and see if there's any flare at the case mouth. I think you'll find that the answer is no.

... the larger number of general use shooters are better off crimping to recommended spec to prevent bullet setback during feed.
Click to expand...
Whose recommended spec is this, and where is it published? I have never seen anything to support or even suggests this.
 
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I'll have to look at the experiment. I expect the issue is the crimp pulling the sides of the case away from the bullet, which has been noted in over-crimping revolver cartridges where the crimp is needed to prevent the bullet creeping forward out of the cases under recoil (inertial bullet pulling). However, in the revolver, the roll crimp in a groove is more important as there is no setback force. So even in the middle good crimp image below, we may see the tension from stretching the neck with the bullet reduced, if not actually pulling away. The Redding Profile Crimp dies are supposed to solve this in revolvers. You can get one for 45 Auto Rim and 45 Auto to be loaded into moon clips for revolvers, and I suppose that could be tried, gently, to achieve nominal case mouth diameter on 45 Auto for a self-loader.

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There is another way to go with soft lead bullets, and that is to seat them out so the cartridge headspaces on the bullet instead of the rim, and then to roll crimp so it bites into the bullet. A lot of bull's-eye target shooters from the '50s and '60s were doing this and you can find it in old publications. They swore it produced the best accuracy. It wouldn't be great for case life in any auto cartridge, but it would give good start pressure and positively prevent setback if the bite into the bullet is adequate. That profile crimp die will do it with 45 Auto, but they don't make one for 9mm for the OP's purposes.
 
Here's one discussion thread that includes some posts by niemi24s. He appears in numerous other threads about reloading in the Ammo & Reloading area of the M1911.org forum.

https://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?110487-bullet-setback-in-case

In this discussion he talks more about his testing of bullet setback in factory ammo. In others, he has gone into more detail about how he has determined that the best bullet retention comes from using the minimum flare possible, and then doing as little as possible to the case after seating the bullet.
 
I did some research on the 9mm taper crimping.

According to what is currently out there on the web, I have to shrug and agree with AB's point there is more advice to only taper crimp enough to remove the bell.
So,I must concede AB is not wrong.

However,I began reloading about 50 years ago. Studied quite a lot. Lots of loading manuals,tons of American Rifleman,subscribed to Handloader Mag,
And along the way,standad doctrine was a light taper crimp,and load manuals often included a "crimp to" dimension.
I even came across a link to a post Unclenick here at TFL authored about setting a taper crimp die for 45 ACP to bite into the bullet slightly to help prevent setback and increase in pressure.
thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324039&page=2

post #38

I'll agree overcrimping bulges the brass and reduces neck tension.

I just watched a Hornady official factory youtube vid on setting up the Hornady Micro taper crimp die for 9mm. The vid showed .001 to .002 crimp good. I'd guess Hornady knows at least as much about it as the guy on the 1911 forum.

I think we agree over crimping is not good.

I think zero crimp vs light crimp is much ado about nothing.

Both systems work. Decades of ammo that worked fine. I was not doing it wrong, and I followed the published recomendations of the time.

Besides,the 1911's I build feed dropping the slide on empty brass from the magazine. Not a lot of setback issues that way.
 
Thanks LE-28. Based on your post, I submitted a request with RCBS and explained everything and my setup to see what they say. There isn't anything blocking the ram that I can tell, and the lever goes all the way down. It is strange, one would think that these dies would be setup to work without running low on threads in a press like the Hornaday AP.
 
This is what my RCBS 9mm resizing die looks like, set up for my Hornady AP.
You can see the thread on the die is pretty well flush with the top of the nut.
I wonder if you have a problem with the hub on your press being to loose.
It will allow the shell plate to tilt and take away from the height of the die.

Move your shell plate forward and backwards to see if you can detect any play in the hub.

I hope the pic I attached is here, I haven't put a pic on here for quite some time.
 

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JBS said:
It is strange, one would think that these dies would be setup to work without running low on threads in a press like the Hornaday AP.
Click to expand...
Why? RCBS doesn't make Hornady presses.

Did you try putting the lock ring on the underside of the press, as I suggested a couple of days ago?
 
If he's using the quick-change system shown in LE-28's photo, I don't think that'll be an option.
Click to expand...
It would negate the quick change feature, for sure, but I'm pretty certain the friend who told me that's what he did was using a Hornady Lock-N-Load AP press.
 
And putting the lock nut underneath presents other problems apparent to those with toolmaker background.
The underside of the press is likely not machined square to the 7/8-14 threads.
(OK,maybe not an issue with Lock-N-Load)

Under load,the surfaces of the 7/8 -14 die threads will be pushed UP against the press 7//8-14 threads.Its a "V" on "V" situation with the thread geometry.
The die can find very good alignment. The lock ring from above compliments the arrangement,especally if there is an O-ring.

A lock ring from below conflicts with the die settling in the press. It pre loads the thread clearance opposite where it will be when the die is under working load.
In the case of a press with an unfinished lower cast surface,the lockring below will bear on an uneven surface,tipping the die out of square within its clearance
 
As it happens, one of my friends over on the M1911.org forum is a bullseye shooter, but he's also a data and measurement freak. He has done extensive research on bullet setback, and what his experiments have shown is that he gets the least bullet setback when the "crimp" is only sufficient to remove the flare. He has posted the results of his setback testing, and they clearly show that adding any crimp after bullet seating actually works against the inherent bullet retention provided by the friction between the case wall and the bullet base.
Click to expand...

That was my experience loading .357 Sig. I had better retention with no crimp. I didn't flare the case mouth either. I found a light chamfer of the case mouth will get the bullet started properly and provide the best bullet retention.
 
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