Why use a DA over a SA?

[Tom Servo]

He called them "crunchentickers" and that was a pejorative.

Strangely enough, he had high praise for the CZ-75. It was everything he hated: 9mm AND double-action.

Get good, though, and you're able to do something not many others can. Besides, if you ever want to shoot a revolver in an IDPA, ICORE or USPSA match, it'll be DA all the way.

True. In my younger days, I did an IDPA match with a S&W Model 19, mostly to be a smart-aleck. I ended up placing well, which came as much of a surprise to me as anyone

Funny thing is, I'm more consistent shooting a revolver in DA than SA. I think it might have something to do with the fact that, in single-action, I have to readjust my grip and sight-picture between shots. In DA, I don't have all that to worry about.

 

[Webleymkv]

This subject can get a bit confusing as there is more than one type of double action in both revolvers and semi-automatics.

With revolvers, there are three basic types of action: Single Action (SA or SAO), Traditional Double Action (DA or TDA), and Double Action Only (DAO).

The single action revolver is pretty self-explanatory requires that the hammer be manually cocked for each shot. Most SA revolvers are of the old-west style such as the Colt SAA, Ruger Vaquero/Blackhawk, or S&W Schofield.

Traditional double action offers the shooter a choice: the hammer can be manually cocked and fired in the same manner as a single action or the shooter can simply pull the trigger which will both cock and release the hammer. The majority of double action revolvers are of this type.

Double action only is the other end of the spectrum in that it removes the option of manually cocking the hammer and thusly forces the shooter to use the longer, heavier, DA pull for each shot. The advantages of this type of action are that it forces the shooter to practice DA shooting (this is considered to be the best method for self-defense with a revolver) and that it usually makes the gun snag-free as most DAO revolver have either spurless hammers or hammers that are fully enclosed in the gun's frame.

Things are slightly more complicated with semi-automatic handguns even though there is still three basic types: Single Action Only (SAO), Traditional Double Action/Single Action (TDA or DA/SA), and Double Action Only (DAO).

With a single-action-only semi-auto, the gun must be pre-cocked in order to fire and the cycling of the slide re-cocks the hammer or striker for each subsequent shot. Guns like the 1911, Browning Hi-Power, and Springfield XD are examples of SAO semi-automatics. The advantage of this system is that it offer a consistent, light trigger pull of every shot.

A traditional double action/single action offers the option for a double action first shot (though most guns allow the shooter to manually cock the hammer if he or she wishes) but the cycling of the slide re-cocks the hammer for single action follow-up shots unless the hammer or striker is manually decocks the gun. The advantages of this system are that the gun may be safely carried with a round in the chamber without the need for a manual safety (though many SAO guns like the Springfield XD may have only passive safety features), second strike capability (the shooter may simply pull the trigger again in the case of a misfire as opposed to manually cocking the gun or cycling the slide as would be necessary with a SAO), and that the SA option is retained.

A double action only semi-auto is much like a DAO revolver in that it forces the shooter to take a DA shot for every round fired. Advantages include a consistent trigger pull (though a longer, heavier one than a SAO) and second strike capability in most models.

One point of confusion is the safe-action system used by Glock. While this system is considered DAO by both Glock and the ATF, it is significantly different than most DAO semi-autos. In a Glock, the striker is partially cocked by the cycling of the slide while the trigger pull fully cocks the striker and releases it firing the gun. Personally, I consider a Glock to be much more similar to a SAO than a DAO because it has a significantly shorter and lighter trigger than most DA handguns and because it has no second strike capability.

 

[44 AMP]

Ah, the joys of double action....

And the true believers, the converts, and the sceptics....

Lots has been said so far, most of it true, but not all of it accurate. Like everything else, DA has advantages, and drawbacks. How much of each varies with the indiviual shooter, and the gun used. Single action guns are not "more accurate" than DA guns, the mode of trigger operation has nothing to do with the accuracy of the gun.

It does, however have a huge amount to do with the accuracy of the shooter! DA trigger pulls are typically between double and triple the weight of the SA pull. DA pulls are also several times longer than the SA pull. This means that most shooters are more likely to pull the gun off target more in DA mode.

Fine accuracy can be done with DA shooting, but, it takes a lot more practice for most to develope the skill to do it, and some shooters never do, inspite of all their practice.

The forte' of the DA system is speed, and safety. Speed, because all one has to do is pull the trigger. Safety, beacuse with the hammer down, the gun is as safe as it gets. This is important in some situations, and irrelevant, in others. I know people who feel that a DA revolver should always be shot DA. Others feel that they should be shot SA, and only use the DA feature in emergencies.

I don't feel either one is completely right, or completely wrong. 95% of my personal shooting is SA, because more than 50% of my guns are SA only, and of the DAs, I don't shoot them DA very much.

And, FYI, COL Cooper never advocated flinging a shot blindly down range to "shot cock" the DA auto. He said you should fire it in the direction of your attacker, without waiting for proper sight alignment. What we would call point shooting in other words. HE fully expected that first shot to be close or even hit the attacker, which is not a bad thing. Then, both you and the gun were configured to deliver the most precise followup shot possible.

While I don't agree with Cooper about everything (or even a lot of things), I do agree that his analysis of the DA auto pistol (as they existed at the time) being a solution to a non-existant problem was accurate.

 

[Dave85]

Quote:
I believe his conclusion was simply that the shooter make that first aimed DA shot without delay, and any fine sight work should be saved for the lighter SA trigger.

Not so.

He thought DA/SA autos were a solution in search of a non-existent problem.

I fail to see what is "not so."

Regardless of his dismissal of the type, he did formulate a mode of operating the things for those who found themselves using them. This took the form of "shot cocking," which, again, did not involve any random shooting.

One does not have to like a machine in order to figure out how to best run it. That Cooper did not see a necessity for the DA/SA auto has no bearing on the fact that he did, in fact, develop at least one theory or technique for it's employment. That is undeniably 'so.'

Incidentally, his positive assessment of the CZ 75 was based on its ability to be carried cocked and locked. He felt that its 9mm chambering was a drawback. The marriage of that design to a more powerful cartridge was at the core of his enthusiasm for the Bren Ten.

 

[Tom Servo]

Incidentally, his positive assessment of the CZ 75 was based on its ability to be carried cocked and locked. He felt that its 9mm chambering was a drawback. The marriage of that design to a more powerful cartridge was at the core of his enthusiasm for the Bren Ten.

Aw, heck...10mm is only 1 bigger than 9. I think Mr. Cooper secretly kept a 92FS under his pillow and shot it when nobody was looking.

He did appreciate DA revolvers, however. I once read an article in which he stated that he'd noticed more shooters showing up for his courses with them. He seemed pleased with that trend.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I think Mr. Cooper secretly kept a 92FS under his pillow and shot it when nobody was looking.

Blasphemy! You'll smoke a **** in hell for that!.............Robin Williams

 

[sandbag]

Double vs.Single

I think with revolvers,it's just a matter of what you're going to use it for.
I have some of each type.My Colt and USFA SAA's are nice from the classic design viepoint and thy're fun to shoot.
My SD and HD guns are DA's.
With automatics,I definitely prefer SA's.I only have one DA,a Mauser HSc and I don't much like shooting it.
Maybe because that's what I started out with,the 1911,is why I prefer SA's.
I've owned some other DA autos and didn't care for any of them-particularly a Glock I had.
I also can't stand 40's.Can't hit the barn from the inside with them,but I shoot competently with the 45,38 Super,and 9mm.I do way best with the 38 Super.Fastest sight recovery of any round except a 22 I've used.

 

[MLeake]

Stevie-Ray said...

...

So then we are to assume that he has surrendered to someone that either didn't fire his weapon at all, or if so, has decocked it?

Not an unreasonable assumption. A statistic often quoted on TFL is that only 1 time in 20 will a drawn handgun actually have to be fired to stop the confrontation. If that's true, it means 95% of the time, the BG will either run away from or surrender to someone that hasn't fired his weapon.

As far as decocking goes, I don't know what percentage of shooters would have the desire, presence of mind, etc to think about or want to decock after having fired, but it might not be a bad idea.

Stevie-Ray also said...

Clicking the safety back on on your 1911 would accomplish the same. Don't know about most, but I'm far quicker clicking off the safety and firing accurately the first shot of my 1911 than I am firing accurately the DA first shot of my HKUSPC, just in case a BG decided to de-surrender.

The only two pistols I had that I would have found remotely challenging to accurately and quickly fire DA at normal defensive ranges are no longer in my safe. Those were a Beretta 92FS Centurion and a SIG P229 SAS .40. They were both great in SA mode, but the DA just never smoothed out the way I like. (However, for the hell of it, tried initiating with DA mode with an M9 on an Army qual course at the closer ranges, and had no trouble at all hitting the targets in the allotted times... it's relative.)

I'd feel more at ease decocking a pistol while covering a BG, if it came to that, than putting the safety on one of my 1911's - at that point, I'd prefer no to hurt him accidentally, but I'd be much more concerned with whether he could hit me while I reminded myself to take the safety back off. With the DA, it would just be pull-bang. (Again, my DA triggers are very manageable, and I do practice with them.)

 

[44 AMP]

small problem....

I'd feel more at ease decocking a pistol while covering a BG, if it came to that, than putting the safety on one of my 1911's - at that point, I'd prefer no to hurt him accidentally,...

There's a small problem with that idea. Decocking the gun while having it pointed at someone is an unsafe practice. And vastly more dangerous than putting the safety on a 1911A1.

Since you, at that point, prefer not to hurt him accidentally, putting the safety on a 1911A1 poses zero threat of discharge (provided, of course you are keeping your finger OFF the trigger). And even with a finger ON the trigger, activating the safety keeps the gun from firing, should you actually pull the trigger.

However, with a DA gun, one that decocks when you apply the safety, or like Sigs, has only the decock feature, there is a risk of the gun firing. Not a big one, true, but a risk, nonetheless. Walthers are notorious for firing when being decocked, if something has broken in the safety system. Certainly, no gun should fire when being decocked, but some can, and under the right conditions, do. ALWAYS point the muzzle in a safe direction when decocking, no matter what you are using!

Gun design has come a long way since the first DA autos, and they should be safe to decock, but, everything made by man can fail. Never trust your life, or someone else's, to any mechanical safety! And yes, that goes for my beloved 1911 as well.

I realize it is anecdotal evidence, so take it for that, but I have personal knowledge of one DA auto, which had been owned for years that would fire when decocked. The problem stayed hidden for years, because the owner always did exactly the same thing when decocking the gun. He held it down, and sideways when working the decock lever. Never had any trouble. One day at the range, a friend wanted to shoot it, and when he decocked the gun (to fire it DA) he was holding it upright in firing position. And it fired! Both (highly surprised) men tested it several times, and it was consistent! When held muzzle down, tilted sideways and decocked, it never went off. When held in a firing grip, pointed down range and decocked, it fired every time!

Yes, it was broken. At certain angles, the broken parts lined up enough to work, at other angles, they didn't! Now, that could never happen to your new whizz bang combat tupperware crunchenticker, right? Right? Don't bet your life, or anyone else's on it!

 

[revolverrandy]

Aren't revolvers and semi auto's both pistols?I read alot of people referring to semi autos as pistols and revolvers as something different.Isn't a pistol basically just another way of saying handgun in general?From there ,we have revolvers and semi automatics?

 

[MLeake]

44 AMP

You're correct about the risk of pointing while decocking.

Kind of curious, for LEO's using DA/SA pistols, what do they teach you to do in this instance? Leave it cocked? Point it aside and decock? What?

(Don't have to think about this with a DA revolver - assuming firing DA not cocking the hammer - or a DAO pistol....)

(I may be one of the strange ones in the forum, in that I like DAO and so no longer worry all that often about decocking anyway)

 

[44 AMP]

Don't know what LEO's teach, but common sense should enter into it. Safe direction when decocking. ALWAYS!!!!!

Remember you always have all the time you need to decock, or to put a safety ON. The reverse is not always true.

And randy, yes, they are all pistols. Or they were ages ago. Today there are dictionaries that define "pistol" as having the chamber integeral with the barrel. SO, by that definition, revolvers are not pistols. But, the Colt patent, and their original ads called the gun a "revolving pistol". So it seems to be pick your choice, and use it. They are all pistols to me.

Today, in common usage, we use pistol for handguns other than revolvers, simply to minimize confusion. And yet, the confusion still exists!

 

[Tom Servo]

Aren't revolvers and semi auto's both pistols?I read alot of people referring to semi autos as pistols and revolvers as something different.

You are correct. The first real revolver was issued a patent under the name "Colt Paterson revolving pistol."

 

[MLeake]

Common Sense

44 AMP, still using common sense, if a BG has threatened me to the point that I've actually fired shots, I'm not sure it would be common sense to point my muzzle away even long enough to decock - that would depend on other factors.

Such as, is he still in condition to aggress if he thinks my guard is down? Do I now have backup on scene?

That sort of thing.

So, assuming a healthy but now "surrendered" BG, still at near range, and a fired DA/SA, would you take the time to point aside and decock, or would you wait for an improvement in the overall situation?

Hopefully that's a more clear version of what I'm asking.

 

[jimbob86]

So, assuming a healthy but now "surrendered" BG, still at near range, and a fired DA/SA, would you take the time to point aside and decock, or would you wait for an improvement in the overall situation?

If this guy is such a hazard that I have to keep a gun on him at all (never mind that he's so dangerous that I can't point it to one side momentarily), I am certainly not goint to de-cock it anyways: I want a single action trigger pull.

It's not something I have to worry about anyway: I don't own a crunchenticker.

 

[MLeake]

Crunchentickers...

44 AMP and JimBob86, while we're on the subject, the only "crunchenticker" I carry is a CZ75B, and I carry that cocked and locked. The DA guns I carry are actually either revolvers, DAK (P239SAS) or striker (Kahr PM9; soon to be M&Pc .357), so decocking isn't an issue for me either way. Then again, neither is the DA to SA transition.

But the answer I gave with regard to safety considerations in covering suspects came from articles from Massad Ayoob and others.

 

[44 AMP]

I've read a lot of Mas's work, and his advice is generally pretty sound. I did especially like his argument in favor of the DA auto (Sig P220) over the SA (1911A1) for police work. And it hinged on the very subject under discussion, covering a "suspect".

The SA auto, in this case the 1911A1 .45 is an excellent combat weapon. Due to the fine SA trigger pull, and the observed loss of fine motor skills under extreme stress observed with most people, it is not as good a choice for a police weapon as the DA auto, in this case the P220.

And that is because, when a soldier sees his enemy, generally, he shoots them. A police officer, however, will probably hold a "suspect" at gunpoint many, many more times than he will actually have to shoot them.

And that is where the longer, heavier DA pull is a huge advantage in preventing "accidental" discharges.

One should decock/apply the safety as soon as you know the shooting is over. That decision is only yours to make, and my earlier comments were not about when to decock, only about how. Myself, I think one should raise the aim of the pistol just over the head (or below the feet) of your assailant and then decock. That way you are still on line with your target, in the vertical plane, which is faster and more precise, I feel to reacquire, in needed, than on line in the horizontal plane. There is also a good chance that your assailant will not even recognise that your pistol is no longer pointed directly at him. Swinging the muzzle off to the side to decock, is more easy to recognize that you aren't on target.

Even though it only takes a brief moment to decock, if you still have serious concern about covering the assailant, you shouldn't. Not until things are more stable. When you feel its time to make safe, then be safe when you do it.

One of the biggest arguments against the DA auto is the change in trigger pull between the first, and all other shots. And there is merit to this. The advent of DAO autos came about specifically to address this issue. And they have done a pretty good job. Any trigger pull can be mastered with enough practice. Pulls that are always the same (SA, DAO) mean that usually less practice is needed to attain the needed level of skill than with a DA auto with two different pulls.