Why this flyer?
- Thread starter lugerstew
- Start date
I bet you can cut a good inch off those groups with a little effort. Your horizontals are great, your verticals need work. First thing is buy a 40 dollar drummers throne off Ebay or Amazon. That rolling stool sucks for stability.
I suggest you load up 60 - 100 rounds at touch then take them to the range with a portable press and a seating die and start bringing them in .003 at a 3 rounds at a time. Shoot @100 yards and if the three touch or are close seat another five at that depth and shoot them at the same dot. If any of the three @ XX depth are uncalled flyers no need to shoot any more at that depth. Keep moving them in till you get nice tight round groups
edit- Now if you still are not happy and can drop another 400 - 800 into the rifle change the barrel out, then the stock, then the trigger in that order. This was shot this morning with a rifle that started life as a Stevens 200 receiver salvaged from a rifle that had been run over with a forklift. A $400 pre fit barrel, $200 Boyds stock and 200 dollar trigger and it outshot a BAT actioned custom this morning. Sorry for the weird shot count but I was finishing off what was left in the ammo box from last match
Get the stock rifle shooting as well as you can by tweaking the load/bullet and action screw torques and if you are still not satisfied start with a prefit Remage style barrel from Northland shooters supply and change the barrel out.
I suggest you load up 60 - 100 rounds at touch then take them to the range with a portable press and a seating die and start bringing them in .003 at a 3 rounds at a time. Shoot @100 yards and if the three touch or are close seat another five at that depth and shoot them at the same dot. If any of the three @ XX depth are uncalled flyers no need to shoot any more at that depth. Keep moving them in till you get nice tight round groups
edit- Now if you still are not happy and can drop another 400 - 800 into the rifle change the barrel out, then the stock, then the trigger in that order. This was shot this morning with a rifle that started life as a Stevens 200 receiver salvaged from a rifle that had been run over with a forklift. A $400 pre fit barrel, $200 Boyds stock and 200 dollar trigger and it outshot a BAT actioned custom this morning. Sorry for the weird shot count but I was finishing off what was left in the ammo box from last match
Get the stock rifle shooting as well as you can by tweaking the load/bullet and action screw torques and if you are still not satisfied start with a prefit Remage style barrel from Northland shooters supply and change the barrel out.
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Thanks Houndawg, I will try a few of those suggestions, one thing though, I mentioned it in previous postings, but the gun already has a 2 pound Timney 2 stage Calvin Elite trigger, it seems to be really good. And I don't have a portable press, just my RCBS Rockchucker, fastened tight to my loading bench, what would be a decent, not too expensive portable press?
I use this press when adjusting seating depth at the range
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013017453#:~:text=The Lee Breech Lock Hand,mere 1 3/4 pounds.
As for seating to touch , If I recall he has a stock Rem 700 ?? If so he isn't likely going to get the bullet to touch the lands with out it almost falling out of the case . 700's are famous for there looong throats .
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013017453#:~:text=The Lee Breech Lock Hand,mere 1 3/4 pounds.
As for seating to touch , If I recall he has a stock Rem 700 ?? If so he isn't likely going to get the bullet to touch the lands with out it almost falling out of the case . 700's are famous for there looong throats .
yep that hand press will work just fine
on the seating depth, the seating depth being used isn't that bad. Start going in and out .003 and .005 and get those groups to go round. Playing with action screw torques might work without doing any fiddling with the load
edit - a couple of other things to look at possible cheap and easy cures that may be causing vertical in groups would be replacing the firing pin spring and removing a small amount of filler from the front bag
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I agree
OP have you found your touch measurement either way . It's the first thing I do when trying a new bullet . Find the base to ogive ( BTO ) measurement which is when the bullet starts touching the lands of the rifling . All other measurements are based off that . This will allow you to know your jump distance and when pushing max charge , making sure when you adjust you don't end up jamming into the lands which could raise start pressures .
Metalgod, yes, when I first try a new bullet, I always use my hornady comparator and a fireformed brass, that was fired in that rifle and I record where that bullet touches the lands, I also do that again if some time has passed since I loaded the same bullet and trying it again, just to see what the throat wear is and adjust seating depth. I think ive noticed over .050 wear in this rifle. I have also used a cheap lyman borescope that I have real trouble interpreting the pictures that it takes, from what I remember the throat looks horrible to me, like the cracks in the dirt in death valley. I guess I could post a few of those pics if anyone here can tell what they mean.
That's thermal stress cracking. It looks a little like an alligator's skin. It is caused by the powder heating the surface of the metal faster than the heat can penetrate into the barrel, so you get a hot surface over a much cooler substrate resulting in thermal expansion differential stress.
If you see pieces broken off (squares missing from the alligator skin) you can guess that you may be seeing some flier behavior due to the condition of the throat. G. David Tubb says his Final Finish and Throat Maintenance System firelapping approach can cure that, at least to double normal barrel life. Something to look at if you don't want to simply pitch the original barrel when the new one comes.
Since you've learned the hard lesson about sample size, let me suggest another causative factor for your first target that occurred to me later and that would lower the odds against it considerably, and that is crooked cartridges. If you aren't already, consider checking your loads for concentricity. This is especially a factor because you have rifling that is not as fast as recommended for the bullet. Such rifling can often still shoot well, but your other Ps and Qs need close attention to make it work. You want your bullet getting into the throat as straight as possible. That can mean more elaborate case sorting and prep, and outside neck turning, specifically. It can also steer you in the direction of using the Redding or Forster sliding sleeve seating dies that helps align bullets or a Lyman M-die to ensure the bullet seating starts straight (or both).
If you see pieces broken off (squares missing from the alligator skin) you can guess that you may be seeing some flier behavior due to the condition of the throat. G. David Tubb says his Final Finish and Throat Maintenance System firelapping approach can cure that, at least to double normal barrel life. Something to look at if you don't want to simply pitch the original barrel when the new one comes.
Since you've learned the hard lesson about sample size, let me suggest another causative factor for your first target that occurred to me later and that would lower the odds against it considerably, and that is crooked cartridges. If you aren't already, consider checking your loads for concentricity. This is especially a factor because you have rifling that is not as fast as recommended for the bullet. Such rifling can often still shoot well, but your other Ps and Qs need close attention to make it work. You want your bullet getting into the throat as straight as possible. That can mean more elaborate case sorting and prep, and outside neck turning, specifically. It can also steer you in the direction of using the Redding or Forster sliding sleeve seating dies that helps align bullets or a Lyman M-die to ensure the bullet seating starts straight (or both).
Thanks Unclenick, I do occasionally check concentricity with the hornady concentricity tool, it usually runs from .001 to .003 runout, which I'm not sure is horrible, but I really don't want to use the device on that tool that tries to push the bullet sideways to be more concentric, how does that change the neck tension consistency?, My seater die is a RCBS competition seating micro adjustable die, maybe I need something else.
Thanks again
Thanks again
you want to try and get it to .001 or lower
I used it on that .7 MOA 10+ shot group at 600 yards. Just be gentle with it, bend the bullet toward concentricity .010 a few times, if that does not get you to .001 or lower try .015 or .020. When you get to .020 it is a heck of a lot of force being applied. If that does not do it, pull the bullet and resize the case and see if you can get the neck straightened
seater die does not make a crap as far as concentricity. Once that bullet starts into the neck it will follow the path of least resistance and follow the inner walls of the neck. Once you see how hard it is to move that bullet/neck .001 when tweaking the concentricity, you will see what I mean.
The stem does need to be contacting the ogive of the bullet not the meplat (tip) to ensure uniform seating depths. Check that by seating a sharpie colored bullet to see where the stem is hitting
The Redding Competition Seater Die is one that actually does make a difference. It is described in this test by German Salazar. However, a number of folks I know have made more conventional seaters perform better by using a Lyman M-die to form a narrow, short expanded length at the mouth (not far enough to cause a flare, unless cast bullets are being used). That allows a bullet to be set on the mouth and down into the expanded area so it sits straight upright. Starting into the seating die straight like that eliminates most tilt error and lets you get a good straight cartridge.
The other factor you want to consider is neck wall runout. If you outside turn your necks, you can make that quite uniform, especially after the first firing and resizing with that new neck. It is some bother to do, however, so you want to determine, for your rifle, how much it matters. Some people see little benefit while others have had this cut group sizes in half.
In the end, using a good seating tool or method and getting runout out of the neck, you should be able to seat your bullets so you don't need the straightening step.
The other factor you want to consider is neck wall runout. If you outside turn your necks, you can make that quite uniform, especially after the first firing and resizing with that new neck. It is some bother to do, however, so you want to determine, for your rifle, how much it matters. Some people see little benefit while others have had this cut group sizes in half.
In the end, using a good seating tool or method and getting runout out of the neck, you should be able to seat your bullets so you don't need the straightening step.
honestly Nick I just cannot buy into the concept that a seater can apply enough lateral force to bend a case neck and seat a bullet crooked. I have been seating with my 308 seater for my .260 Rems for years now and recently been playing with the Franklin Universal seater and both have gave me excellent results as far as runout.
Seems like David Tubb agrees since he has just came out with what he calls the 6XC Plus seater, made for him by Whidden, that will seat like fourteen different rounds from .22 BR to .308. Video for those interested
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT0sCEmQq3o&feature=emb_logo
that aside I am just starting to experiment with sizing using expander mandrels. Early results seem to indicate excellent results on runout with .0005 or less runout on twenty 6.5 cases loaded today. I am using a redding bushing to size down to .259 then expanding to .261 for .003 to .0035 neck tension
Seems like David Tubb agrees since he has just came out with what he calls the 6XC Plus seater, made for him by Whidden, that will seat like fourteen different rounds from .22 BR to .308. Video for those interested
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT0sCEmQq3o&feature=emb_logo
that aside I am just starting to experiment with sizing using expander mandrels. Early results seem to indicate excellent results on runout with .0005 or less runout on twenty 6.5 cases loaded today. I am using a redding bushing to size down to .259 then expanding to .261 for .003 to .0035 neck tension
Unclenick,, I am loading up some 308 rounds now with 185g berger vld target bullets and Lapua brass, 7 each of the brass are neck turned and FL sized with about .003 setback, seating them all to 2.810 and doing the concentricity adjustments to <.001 like houndawg suggested, the other 7 each Lapua brass are not neck turned and I did not FL resize them, only used my RCBS neck sizer die. The neck turned brass gives me about .002 neck tension, and the non neck turned brass has about .0025 neck tension. I'm going to shoot them all, same setting at 200 yds and see if I will see a difference in group size between the two groups. I'm using 40grains of Varget in all the rounds.
Thanks
Thanks
hounddawg said:
Oh my goodness, of course it can. Why do you think all the various attempts to solve the problem have been published for decades, varying from seating a bulet in steps with partial rotation of the cartridge between the steps to using the M-die to start bullets in straight, to using O-rings to try to float the exact die angle. It's a problem that's been around for a long time. I think what happens is a seating ram can engage the bullet firmly enough to seat it without straightening it perfectly, especially if it hasn't been cut to match the specific bullet profile, so it just pushes the bend down in. We know the press has no problem providing enough force to deform brass, or it wouldn't be able to resize cases.
My Redding standard seating die used to give me 30-06 rounds with up to 0.008" TIR. When I switched to the Redding Competition Seating Die in 1991 or '92, changing nothing else, measured runout dropped to 0.002" or less, with the 0.002" invariably being due to uneven neck wall thickness I could measure. And this was just before I got my Co-ax press, so I was using an old Lyman Spartan turret press, which was not exactly producing top-notch perfection in die and press ram alignment.
Lugerstew,
It is not neck tension but the alignment of the bullet and case we are concerned with here. Did I miss something? Or are you saying you have the runout down to 0.001" on all of them and just mentioned the interference fit between your sized cases and the bullet as an aside? I think Bart B. mentioned the military marksmanship units had determined 0.0015" interference fit was optimal for accuracy in their ammunition (this would have been 30 Cal). You can experiment with it.
Comparing the neck-sized cases to the resized cases is getting two variables at one time, so if you spot an accuracy difference you won't know which variable to blame it on; the unturned necks or the unresized case bodies.
Ya Unclenick, you are for sure right about an extra variable, i was thinking about that as well, I will have to try this again with only one variable for certainty. Also, maybe I didn't explain it enough, yes I am adjusting the concentricity on all rounds to .001 or less.
Soon I can try different neck tensions, I ordered a Redding bushing sizing die, but forgot to order bushings, I have the die, but it's worthless without the bushings, I got bushings ordered, should be here wednesday.
Soon I can try different neck tensions, I ordered a Redding bushing sizing die, but forgot to order bushings, I have the die, but it's worthless without the bushings, I got bushings ordered, should be here wednesday.
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That should do well. It varies with the bullet shape (worse with short bearing surface), but the old military match M1 Type bullet increased group radius by about 0.25 moa for each 0.002" of total indicated cartridge runout, maxing the effect out with a runout of about 0.009". Additional runout beyond that had no effect, as additional tilt seemed to be straightened when the bullet entered the throat. That bullet has a short-ish bearing surface of just under 0.9 calibers, IIRC.
@UncleNick
The case rising in the press simply forces the bullet against the seating stem. The bullet will then take the path of least resistance and be forced down into the case neck. I see no where in that operation where a lateral force is being applied to the bullet which would bend the neck of the case.
Now wouldn't you agree that for it not to be aligned there would have to be a sufficient amount of force would have to be applied perpendicular to the bullet/neck to deform the brass of the neck.
Wouldn't you also agree that without that lateral force that the bullet will simply follow the interior neck walls and with a compressive force equal to .001 stretch of the brass or greater that the bullet will remain parallel to the interior neck walls?
The case rising in the press simply forces the bullet against the seating stem. The bullet will then take the path of least resistance and be forced down into the case neck. I see no where in that operation where a lateral force is being applied to the bullet which would bend the neck of the case.
Now wouldn't you agree that for it not to be aligned there would have to be a sufficient amount of force would have to be applied perpendicular to the bullet/neck to deform the brass of the neck.
Wouldn't you also agree that without that lateral force that the bullet will simply follow the interior neck walls and with a compressive force equal to .001 stretch of the brass or greater that the bullet will remain parallel to the interior neck walls?
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Houndawg, from my experience of pushing hundreds of bullets in at about .0150 to .002 neck tension, I can not even imagine that slight of a force bending a brass neck, they feel like they almost fall in.
Also so far I've learned that it is a lot harder to straighten a round in the Hornady concentricity tool when the bullet is seated far into the case, than it is to straighten a round when the bullet is seated to a minimum or slightly less than the diameter of the bullet.
Also so far I've learned that it is a lot harder to straighten a round in the Hornady concentricity tool when the bullet is seated far into the case, than it is to straighten a round when the bullet is seated to a minimum or slightly less than the diameter of the bullet.