Why this flyer?
- Thread starter lugerstew
- Start date
MG,
Yeah. It's a giant number. But all it does is argue against the error being a random part of the normal distribution of shots in a group fired in still air from a perfectly repeatable shooting platform. If Lugerstew kept his eye's open and didn't see the sights shift or didn't feel the recoil any differently, then the odds are pretty strong that an unidentified and intermittent variable is at work.
Bart B.,
You beat me to it. That's what I was angling for with the recoil feeling different. I always remember the first time I tried a long range course with a good rifle and ammo combination. I had 9 pretty uniform feeling shots at the 800 yard bull and printed that many 10s and Xs. But one shot's recoil felt a little different; sort of wobbly. I think I had got my sling arm's elbow a little too far under the rifle. When the target came up, it was a 9. So I pay attention to the recoil feel as one element of feedback about my position.
Yeah. It's a giant number. But all it does is argue against the error being a random part of the normal distribution of shots in a group fired in still air from a perfectly repeatable shooting platform. If Lugerstew kept his eye's open and didn't see the sights shift or didn't feel the recoil any differently, then the odds are pretty strong that an unidentified and intermittent variable is at work.
Bart B.,
You beat me to it. That's what I was angling for with the recoil feeling different. I always remember the first time I tried a long range course with a good rifle and ammo combination. I had 9 pretty uniform feeling shots at the 800 yard bull and printed that many 10s and Xs. But one shot's recoil felt a little different; sort of wobbly. I think I had got my sling arm's elbow a little too far under the rifle. When the target came up, it was a 9. So I pay attention to the recoil feel as one element of feedback about my position.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=112613&d=1609113675
Left and middle groups, same ammo all prepped the same, groups shot within an 30 minutes of each other. 168 ES and 56 SD on the left group, 47 ES and 13 SD on the middle. Same rifle, and front and rear rests. Five rounds shot as sighter and fouling shots before the left group was shot. Wind had actually picked up a tad on the center group. Powder charge weighed on A&D 120 to exact weight minus the scale accuracy of two milligrams, all rounds checked for base to ogive within .001 of each other and for concentricity less than or equal to .001
Experts say the bullet has left the barrel before recoil moves the rifle. When I see something like this I have my doubts on whether the experts know their bums from a hole in the ground. Last as I remember Newton did not factor in lag when he wrote his laws of motion
@ Nick I see 3 - 5 bullets touching @ 300 - 800 yards four or five times for every 60 shots fired in matches. That still does not mean my rifle or myself is capable of shooting .01 MOA and that anything that lands outside of those teeny subgroups is a bedding or lands issue.
Too many other variables such as shooters skill, environmentals, and rifles accuracy. Otherwise my wife could take a surplus Enfield and military surplus ammo shoot with a 20 MPH crosswind and have the same chance of putting 5 in the same hole as Tony Boyd would in a indoor range using a 5k custom and hand rolled ammo
Left and middle groups, same ammo all prepped the same, groups shot within an 30 minutes of each other. 168 ES and 56 SD on the left group, 47 ES and 13 SD on the middle. Same rifle, and front and rear rests. Five rounds shot as sighter and fouling shots before the left group was shot. Wind had actually picked up a tad on the center group. Powder charge weighed on A&D 120 to exact weight minus the scale accuracy of two milligrams, all rounds checked for base to ogive within .001 of each other and for concentricity less than or equal to .001
Experts say the bullet has left the barrel before recoil moves the rifle. When I see something like this I have my doubts on whether the experts know their bums from a hole in the ground. Last as I remember Newton did not factor in lag when he wrote his laws of motion
@ Nick I see 3 - 5 bullets touching @ 300 - 800 yards four or five times for every 60 shots fired in matches. That still does not mean my rifle or myself is capable of shooting .01 MOA and that anything that lands outside of those teeny subgroups is a bedding or lands issue.
Too many other variables such as shooters skill, environmentals, and rifles accuracy. Otherwise my wife could take a surplus Enfield and military surplus ammo shoot with a 20 MPH crosswind and have the same chance of putting 5 in the same hole as Tony Boyd would in a indoor range using a 5k custom and hand rolled ammo
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Yes, nothing rare about doubles and triples or more, but the odds are that a lot of your other holes are a lot closer than 15 times the extreme spread of the ones that are touching. That's what makes the probability small that the OP has a simple bivariate normal distribution (a round group with shot density higher in the center than around it) rather than there being some different sort of distribution or a non-random one.
I've had the experience of regularly shooting four to touch or near touching, followed by a fifth one a moa away from the rest, but it wasn't a random distribution. It was just before I finally retired my first M1A barrel as shot out. There was a random element as to which shot out of the five was going to do it, but the dislocation was always at about 10:00-11:00 making a second distinct group, and not random. Here, we have to wait to see if the OP's pattern repeats.
I've had the experience of regularly shooting four to touch or near touching, followed by a fifth one a moa away from the rest, but it wasn't a random distribution. It was just before I finally retired my first M1A barrel as shot out. There was a random element as to which shot out of the five was going to do it, but the dislocation was always at about 10:00-11:00 making a second distinct group, and not random. Here, we have to wait to see if the OP's pattern repeats.
Sorry Nick I stopped reading that post when I got to th epart "assuming that the three shots are representative' . I don't think anyone would assume that .01 MOA groups by a off the shelf 700 is representative of what the rifle normally shoots. If it is I would offer the OP double what he paid for it Then go set a few International records with it and win a whole lot of bar bets 
Right. That's why I don't think that theory is the most plausible one. It's the second one that you didn't read that makes more sense to me. But even then, the odds of that pattern appearing are very low. With more shots in those ideal conditions, we'll get a better sense of what is happening.
recoil junky
New member
By that I take you to mean if they only get 3-4 factory rounds a year. NONE of mine have ever seen a factory round since they came into my posse and they all better shoot less than 1 1/2 or we go back to the work bench for more load twiddling, bedding, floating etc until they do.
Rj
No worries, loaded up 20 identical rounds today, hopefully to shoot them tomorrow if the wind cooperates, if not later in the week, i will post the pics.
Also, im not positive, but im pretty sure that my gun is a 1 in 12 twist, and Berger recommends 1 in 11 or faster for that bullet, i wonder if that could be some flyers?
Also, im not positive, but im pretty sure that my gun is a 1 in 12 twist, and Berger recommends 1 in 11 or faster for that bullet, i wonder if that could be some flyers?
Shooting off the bench have you ever tried or considered using a No Pulse sling configuration? Shooting prone it's how I learned to use a sling to stop the pulse in my arm which in short order goes completely numb. Breathing control along with holding and squeezing with no pulse is what should help since you mentioned seeing your pulse through your scope.
Ron
Ron
Wow, what a learning experience. You guys are right, after years of only shooting 3 and 4 rounds groups, I will never be satisfied with those results again. Shooting 2, 10 round groups at 300 yds with a stock rifle was a humbling lesson for me, as you will see in the pics. My chrono wasn't working on the group 1, but I got it going for group 2 to show ES, SD, etc. I also think ive learned that I could be expecting to much from an off the shelf rifle, conditions were pretty much the same today as when I shot the 4 shot group, maybe 1 or 2 mph crosswind, could hardly feel it at all, but 10 rounds made a large difference in group size, like I said earlier though, maybe I should stir away from this bullet, since Berger calls for 1 in 11 twist rifle and mine is 1 in 12, that moderate instability could be showing up now for me, now that I'm past 100 and 200 yards. Back to the loading bench, thanks again for all the advice. Oh the range pic shows my setup while I was waiting for the sun to come up higher and shine on my target.
Attachments
4 1/4" 10-shot group at 300yd is pretty good already. Of course it can always be better. I usually take away flyers that I have called. It makes group smaller.
4 1/4" is the extreme spread, right? I also calculate group sizes of 50 and 90 percentile. They give me more insights into the shot distribution.
I actually find shooting through chrony distracting. That's part of the reason I got a labradar.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
4 1/4" is the extreme spread, right? I also calculate group sizes of 50 and 90 percentile. They give me more insights into the shot distribution.
I actually find shooting through chrony distracting. That's part of the reason I got a labradar.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk