Why so many 1911 copy cats?

P

Prof Young

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After reading an article about the competition that lead to the creation of the 1911 hand gun I'm wondering how there can legally be so many copy cats? Does Colt not have a patent on the original?

Life is good.
Prof Young
 
The patent ran out many years ago.

The 1911 is a loved and respected design and very popular. So the reason many companies make it is simply because they sell, and that makes them money.

Gun companies make guns not just to make guns, but to make money.
 
Patents just like copyright expire and once a patent expires anyone can reproduce it. It seems after decades there was an overwhelming new interest in the 1911 so a few manufacturers began making them. That sort of snowballed obviously to where there is a saturation of them available from very expensive to inexpensive. Like a 1911 smorgasbord out there. You can also find slight variations depending on manufacturer in some cases. Anyway it's open season on manufacturing them and so goes the AR-15 but the AR-15 name still belongs to Colt I believe. Thus we see the same or similar rifles with different manufacturer's naming conventions.

Ron
 
Prof Young said:
After reading an article about the competition that lead to the creation of the 1911 hand gun I'm wondering how there can legally be so many copy cats? Does Colt not have a patent on the original?

Life is good.
Prof Young
Click to expand...
Patents run out after twenty years...then anyone can copy the item verbatim.
 
The patents expired in the 1930s.

Up until the late 1980s. nobody wanted to copy the 1911. Revolvers ruled, just as they had for 100+ years. They were available chambered for cartridges that were more powerful than most semi-autos, and were what the police forces of the world carried "because of reliability" (mostly economic and political reasons in reality). Beginning in the 1980s, the profusion of high-capacity 9mm semi-autos began to bring people around to semi-auto pistols. 1911s were still considered "obsolete" because of low magazine capacity (7 or 9 rounds), while BHPs, S&W 59s, Steyr 18, SIG were touting the wonderful benefits of higher capacity.. If you wanted a 1911, you got a Colt Government or Commander model, or you could buy a WW2 version cheap (often $75 or less).

Beginning in the 1980s, other makers began to market 1911s (Vega was first), then began importing 1911s (Springfield), then US gunmakers started to produce them as popularity increased (much of this due to reliability and a more powerful cartridge than 380 or 9mm).
 
Llama and Star made 1911 copies- some verbatim and others modified from the 1920s until the 1980s.
Essex and others made frames in the US and sold them so you could assemble your own guns from surplus G.I. parts
 
Llama and Star made 1911 copies- some verbatim and others modified
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Most Llama and Star 1911s were not 1911s, they just kinda look like one. Most were more like the Star Model B and Balester-Molina- pinned triggers, odd-sized parts, just a blend of features. Strictly speaking, if you say "it's a 1911", 1911 parts should fit because the 1911 is a specified design and has been for 100+ years.
 
^^^

Scorch is correct. The Star pistols are definitely not 1911s, nor are Ballester-Molinas and Ballestar-Rigauds (despite the fact that the Ballesters can, IIRC, use 1911 magazines). The full-size Llamas (the original, Spanish pistols, not the current 1911 clones made under the Llama brand name in the Philippines) were basically 1911 "pattern" pistols, but were not 100 percent parts interchangeable. There's an article on www.m1911.org that spells out what the parts interchange is for the original Llamas.
 
The early Springfield Armory M1911's had the forgings made in Brazil but the finishing machine work was done in the US. Later on the had to reorganize and for awhile their 1911's were all imported but as I understand it, they're made in the US again...

Tony
 
I said COPIES. I know full well about Stars, Llamas, and the Ballesters. They were designed after the 1911, and in my opinion-improved the design.
The Llamas were built just like the 1911-though parts would seldom interchange.
 
I agree that the Star [and Ballester-Molina, which was inspired by the Star Model P] handguns are influenced and inspired by the 1911 design, but have features that are arguably a tad better [like the safety design- I think that is the bee's knees!].

As to 'why so many 1911 clones/copies? Taste and copyright date?

If they didn't sell, no one would be copying them- and they can because the copyright/trademark on the design expired in the 1920s/30s.


In California, it is like the rest of the US in the 1990s- no mags over 10 rounds [unless LEO status]. Why pack 1240 grains of 9mm lead to hit the target instead of 1840gr of .45acp lead?

I don't have any other insights into the answer to your question- but I am sure it is simple economics. No one will make a product [for long] that they aren't convinced they can sell.

A better question [and one asked every month on almost every forum] is why the 1911 design is so popular, when it is now over 100 years old.
 
The clones are an evolution of the custom guns.

In the 70’s there were mostly Colts. Then came modified Colts. Then some others like Springfield came to fill that gap, but the custom 1911 market blew up. In the late 80’s and 90’s there were 1000’s of custom 1911 builders. Then they came to realize they needed to machine parts from stock to get what customers wanted. That birthed Caspian, which birthed about 20 bar stock frame and slide makers. This was actually the downfalls of full house customs.

I blame Lane Simpson and his book! Obviously I’m joking, but it showed you what was happening with custom 1911’s and who was doing it.

After this, some companies sought out a nitch market of full house custom quality, but since so many people were ordering the same gun, they made like 1-5 models each. These were names like Ed Brown, Wilson, Les Baer, etc. the added benefit is that pretty much all of the big names like these plus Richard Heinie, George at EGW, and a few others were looking to retire or at least get off the bench.

As the $2500+ guns were becoming standardized and easier to produce, the production market started making good looking mim filled guns under $1000 to beat Colt and fill that need for a sub$1000 custom looking gun that may or may not run. Heck today Kimber makes 50 upc’s of a handful of parts in a dizzying array of colors and meaningless tactical cuts all from a small number of mim molds and some minor machining. RIA does nearly the same, but in way fewer colors and less finish work.

As you can see a gap formed between $1000 and $4000(where the $2500 guns went). Dan Wesson, Colt and Springfield have jumped into that gap and filled it pretty well. Dan Wesson makes a great high quality gun with a great finish for under $2000 by precision machining.

Somewhere after this, the $10000+ production custom gap was identified and Cabot is filling that!

This is why so many clones were made.
 
As others have pointed out, the patents expired decades ago.

Now notice that most fast food outlets in America these days offer their version of the chicken sandwich originated years back by Chick-fil-A. That's because folks know a good thing when they see it, want to buy it-- and good businessmen know how to take advantage of demand ;-)
 
You can't patent "a gun," nor can you copyrite one.
You can patent design features. I doubt there was ever a Colt 1911 patent or copyrite.
 
there are so many other companies making them because Colt priced them out of reach of the working man. the design is favored by a lot of people both professional and layman, but not everyone can afford the $1,000 price tag on a Colt. If Colt made them for ~$500 for a basic they'd put other companies on the sideline, because who'd buy a Taurus or RIA 1911 when you could have a Colt for the same price.
 
Ah . . . patents don't have a long shelf life . . .

Okay. I didn't realize a patent had that short of a life. Only 20 years. Sure. With no patent why wouldn't a gun company make their own version of the 1911.

Life is good.
Prof Young
 
Bill DeShivs:
You can't patent "a gun," nor can you copyrite one.
You can patent design features. I doubt there was ever a Colt 1911 patent or copyrite.
Click to expand...

For the Patent curious at heart.

Jerry's:
there are so many other companies making them because Colt priced them out of reach of the working man. the design is favored by a lot of people both professional and layman, but not everyone can afford the $1,000 price tag on a Colt. If Colt made them for ~$500 for a basic they'd put other companies on the sideline, because who'd buy a Taurus or RIA 1911 when you could have a Colt for the same price.
Click to expand...

I believe in all fairness to Colt it cost a heck of a lot more money to manufacture a gun in Conn. than where some of the guns you mention are manufactured. As to RIA they are designed and manufactured by Armscor in Marikina, Philippines, and distributed in the United States by Armscor USA, located in Pahrump, Nevada. As to Taurus it was designed and manufactured by Taurus in Porto Alegre Brazil, and distributed in the US by Taurus USA. During the early 90s we had 1911 guns pour in from China before Clinton imposed the ban and at about $250 a gun.

Colt is also a UAW shop paying UAW scale wages so what really drove the price of a Colt 1911 made in Hartford Conn? Did Colt price them out of reach or did cheap non union labor outside the US hurt Colt?

Ron
 
The patent covers features of the gun, not the gun itself.

"Colt is also a UAW shop paying UAW scale wages so what really drove the price of a Colt 1911 made in Hartford Conn? Did Colt price them out of reach or did cheap non union labor outside the US hurt Colt?"

Or, did UAW union labor rates and practices hurt Colt?? Those rates sure hurt the auto manufacturers.
 
After this, some companies sought out a nitch market of full house custom quality, but since so many people were ordering the same gun, they made like 1-5 models each.
Click to expand...

That's the part of the "1911" market that amazes me; twenty makers all doing essentially the same thing, taking a share of the same pie rather than doing something different and dominating.
 
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