https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_S&W_Long
If you search this forum you'll find the same thing I wrote, in more detail.
If you search this forum you'll find the same thing I wrote, in more detail.
Why should I get a Police Positive in .32 sw long?
- Thread starter HighValleyRanch
- Start date
Problem is, Buzz, that you're talking about the cartridge
Wikipedia: .32 S&W Long
and I'm talking about the revolver. I own it! I'm looking at it. It's a:
Wikipedia: Colt New Police Revolver .32
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Buzz....I really do appreciate your information and I know you're trying to be helpful. I will do some more research.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Jazz,
The only concern with your revolver is that the grip configuration isn't correct for a New Police/Police Positive.
The New Police revolver had, as Driftwood said, a longer grip. It also had a more flared butt, essentially giving it a square butt configuration.
Your revolver has the butt configuration of the New Pocket revolver -- more a round butt configuration.
Note this from this article: https://gundigest.com/more/classic-guns/classics_coltsnubbie
"The original Colt New Pocket .32 had a compact, round-butt grip frame that made it especially well-suited for concealed carry. In 1896, Colt developed a variation of the New Pocket with a square-butt grip frame and released it as the New Police."
Also, note this regarding chamberings...
"(On special order, Colt would chamber the New Pocket and New Police in the much-superior, inside-lubricated .32 S&W Long cartridge, but it wasn’t eager to recognize a S&W product or stamp the hated “S&W” on its guns.)"
If that's the case, you could well have one of the special order New Pocket revolvers that was chambered for the the .32 Long cartridge.
The only concern with your revolver is that the grip configuration isn't correct for a New Police/Police Positive.
The New Police revolver had, as Driftwood said, a longer grip. It also had a more flared butt, essentially giving it a square butt configuration.
Your revolver has the butt configuration of the New Pocket revolver -- more a round butt configuration.
Note this from this article: https://gundigest.com/more/classic-guns/classics_coltsnubbie
"The original Colt New Pocket .32 had a compact, round-butt grip frame that made it especially well-suited for concealed carry. In 1896, Colt developed a variation of the New Pocket with a square-butt grip frame and released it as the New Police."
Also, note this regarding chamberings...
"(On special order, Colt would chamber the New Pocket and New Police in the much-superior, inside-lubricated .32 S&W Long cartridge, but it wasn’t eager to recognize a S&W product or stamp the hated “S&W” on its guns.)"
If that's the case, you could well have one of the special order New Pocket revolvers that was chambered for the the .32 Long cartridge.
Mike Irwin
Staff
If you look at the New Pocket revolver displayed here, you're going to see that it's identical to your revolver.
http://www.coltautos.com/DA/NewPocket/newpocketci_26711.htm
But, note the barrel marking.
This gun is marked Colt DA .32, which was standard way of marking revolvers that chambered their .32 Long Colt cartridge.
The marking on your gun doesn't designate the mode of the gun, it designates what cartridge it fires.
http://www.coltautos.com/DA/NewPocket/newpocketci_26711.htm
But, note the barrel marking.
This gun is marked Colt DA .32, which was standard way of marking revolvers that chambered their .32 Long Colt cartridge.
The marking on your gun doesn't designate the mode of the gun, it designates what cartridge it fires.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy Again
If you look at the photo on the Wikipedia page that you refer to, you will see the New Police revolver has the longer grip. This is because it was a police revolver, not meant to be easily concealed. Yes, a fairly small revolver, smaller than most 38 Specials, but still not meant to be easily concealed.
Your revolver has the smaller grip, which is meant for easy concealment in a pocket, hence the name New Pocket Model.
The legend on the barrel refers to the cartridge the gun is chambered for, it is not a model name.
If you look at the photo on the Wikipedia page that you refer to, you will see the New Police revolver has the longer grip. This is because it was a police revolver, not meant to be easily concealed. Yes, a fairly small revolver, smaller than most 38 Specials, but still not meant to be easily concealed.
Your revolver has the smaller grip, which is meant for easy concealment in a pocket, hence the name New Pocket Model.
The legend on the barrel refers to the cartridge the gun is chambered for, it is not a model name.
Hi Mike...
Thanks very much for all the information that you gave me to research and learn how to identify the Colt revolver that I have. I really did intend to get back here sooner to tell you and Driftwood how much I appreciated the time you took to educate me and I really do appreciate the correction.
I learned so much by following the links you both provided and am even more fascinated with these old revolvers now than I was before. We are going to take it to the range this weekend to fire it for the first time.
I do admit it is somewhat confusing, a little bit, still.... as to why they marked it New Police instead of Colt Pocket .32 or whatever. But then on the other hand I have read that sometimes Colt would put barrels with entirely different markings on the guns just as long as the correct cartridge was there. Interesting.
I do like this little 'pocket' revolver. Thanks again for all the really great info!
Jazz
Hey Driftwood.... PLEASE accept my most sincere apology for doubting you! You were SOOOO correct about my gun not being the New Police and being the Pocket model. I appreciate you so much for not being offended after I was so defensive. LOL I have so much to learn. I've never researched Colt like I have these last few days and it is truly fascinating I've learned so much. I wish I had a nicer revolver now. LOL! I actually do like this one and if you read my response to Mike, we are taking it to the range this weekend to fire it.
Thanks again so much for being so nice and taking the time to teach me about my gun and again...hope you will overlook my ignorance as well as my being so hard headed.
Cheers!
Buzz..thank you, thank you and thank you! I stand corrected. I had absolutely no idea that a company would mark the barrel with a name that wasn't the exact name of the model. I just didn't know. And I was so silly insisting I was right. Hope you'll forgive me for being a ditzy blonde! LOL
Thanks again for the help and the education!
~ Jazz
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I do admit it is somewhat confusing, a little bit, still.... as to why they marked it New Police instead of Colt Pocket .32 or whatever. But then on the other hand I have read that sometimes Colt would put barrels with entirely different markings on the guns just as long as the correct cartridge was there. Interesting."
Jazz,
As I noted, this was Colt's way of identifying the round it chambered. Colt was marketing the rounds as the .32 New Police cartridge. I'm not exactly certain when Colt "developed" this cartridge, but it was sometime after 1896 when S&W brought the .32 S&W Long round to market.
It was probably also after Theodore Roosevelt introduced the Colt New Police revolver in .32 Long Colt to the New York City Police Department as I suspect he would have adopted the .32 New Police cartridge had it been available.
In this case I think it's pretty evident from the time line that Colt named the revolver first, and then named their version of the .32 S&W Long the New Police after the revolver, but I can't say that 100% for certain.
This is a good example of how the ammunition was marked/marketed in the early days.
This is a Winchester box of .32 New Police cartridges.
We know that this box was made sometime after 1907, because that's when Colt introduced the Police Positive revolver, and probably before 1912-1914, when Winchester changed its box to one with a dark red band.
Jazz,
As I noted, this was Colt's way of identifying the round it chambered. Colt was marketing the rounds as the .32 New Police cartridge. I'm not exactly certain when Colt "developed" this cartridge, but it was sometime after 1896 when S&W brought the .32 S&W Long round to market.
It was probably also after Theodore Roosevelt introduced the Colt New Police revolver in .32 Long Colt to the New York City Police Department as I suspect he would have adopted the .32 New Police cartridge had it been available.
In this case I think it's pretty evident from the time line that Colt named the revolver first, and then named their version of the .32 S&W Long the New Police after the revolver, but I can't say that 100% for certain.
This is a good example of how the ammunition was marked/marketed in the early days.
This is a Winchester box of .32 New Police cartridges.
We know that this box was made sometime after 1907, because that's when Colt introduced the Police Positive revolver, and probably before 1912-1914, when Winchester changed its box to one with a dark red band.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I had absolutely no idea that a company would mark the barrel with a name that wasn't the exact name of the model."
Actually, it was pretty UNCOMMON for Colt or Smith & Wesson to put the model name on the gun.
In the case of Smith & Wesson I can only thing of two examples off the top of my head -- the Regulation Police, chambered in .32 S&W Long, and the Highway Patrolman, chambered in .357 Magnum.
In both cases I believe the intent was to market these guns directly to police, and the thought was that by putting the police connotation right on the gun it would grease the skids a bit.
That's my theory, and I have no clue if it's correct or not.
Actually, it was pretty UNCOMMON for Colt or Smith & Wesson to put the model name on the gun.
In the case of Smith & Wesson I can only thing of two examples off the top of my head -- the Regulation Police, chambered in .32 S&W Long, and the Highway Patrolman, chambered in .357 Magnum.
In both cases I believe the intent was to market these guns directly to police, and the thought was that by putting the police connotation right on the gun it would grease the skids a bit.
That's my theory, and I have no clue if it's correct or not.
Mike,
You wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out. It confirms what I had begun to think about S&W's markings. Colt does seem to be a little better because I have seen the model name on several different Colts. But until your post, I had begun to think there were NO S&W revolvers that were marked with the model name.
Which also explains why even gun shops mislabel Smith revolvers!
You wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out. It confirms what I had begun to think about S&W's markings. Colt does seem to be a little better because I have seen the model name on several different Colts. But until your post, I had begun to think there were NO S&W revolvers that were marked with the model name.
Which also explains why even gun shops mislabel Smith revolvers!
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Colt does seem to be a little better because I have seen the model name on several different Colts."
Yes, Colt started putting the model name on their guns a LOT more frequently starting around World War I or so, I think, and after the 1920s it was pretty standard.
All three of the Colt revolvers that I have, a .32-20 Police Positive Special, a .32 Police Positive (picture in this thread), and an Official Police in .38 Special, are stamped with the model name.
The Police Postive and the Police Positive Special are both from the 1930s, and the Official Police was made in 1968 or so.
Yes, Colt started putting the model name on their guns a LOT more frequently starting around World War I or so, I think, and after the 1920s it was pretty standard.
All three of the Colt revolvers that I have, a .32-20 Police Positive Special, a .32 Police Positive (picture in this thread), and an Official Police in .38 Special, are stamped with the model name.
The Police Postive and the Police Positive Special are both from the 1930s, and the Official Police was made in 1968 or so.
Mike Irwin
Staff
There was a recent mini-series on TV set in the late 1890s in New York City.
It was called The Alienist, and based on a book of the same name.
The story revolves around the efforts of an Alienist (today known as a psychologist or psychiatrist) to hunt down a serial killer preying on boy prostitutes (NYC really sucked in those days).
The alienist worked closely with several police officers, but separate from the NYPD. One of the main characters in the story is Teddy Roosevelt, a police commissioner at the time.
Why am I bringing this up?
Because in one of the episodes he's shown unpacking revolvers from a shipping crate marked Colt, and says to those in the scene "This is Colt's New Police revolver. All of our officers will now be armed with these modern handguns." (or something similar).
The only problem with the scene?
He was holding a relatively recent S&W Model 10...
It was called The Alienist, and based on a book of the same name.
The story revolves around the efforts of an Alienist (today known as a psychologist or psychiatrist) to hunt down a serial killer preying on boy prostitutes (NYC really sucked in those days).
The alienist worked closely with several police officers, but separate from the NYPD. One of the main characters in the story is Teddy Roosevelt, a police commissioner at the time.
Why am I bringing this up?
Because in one of the episodes he's shown unpacking revolvers from a shipping crate marked Colt, and says to those in the scene "This is Colt's New Police revolver. All of our officers will now be armed with these modern handguns." (or something similar).
The only problem with the scene?
He was holding a relatively recent S&W Model 10...
Originally posted by Jazzgun:
Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
Mike, I still appreciate your attempting to explain it to me and others who read this thread. I agree, finally, that my gun is not technically a Colt New Police; however, I'm beginning to wonder if Colt meant for the model to be considered a New Police on any of the new 'police guns' they made or if they were actually referring to the Police Positive and the Pocket Positive. Like, maybe the detectives carried the Police Pocket, or would that be called the Pocket Positive. See how complicated I can make things in my mind? lol
So, my question to you today is this: Do I have a Colt Pocket Positive .32? Is that the model of my gun? Or is my gun simply a pocket version of the New Police gun, which made several models including the Police Positive?
Thanks in advance!
~ Jazz
Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
Mike, I still appreciate your attempting to explain it to me and others who read this thread. I agree, finally, that my gun is not technically a Colt New Police; however, I'm beginning to wonder if Colt meant for the model to be considered a New Police on any of the new 'police guns' they made or if they were actually referring to the Police Positive and the Pocket Positive. Like, maybe the detectives carried the Police Pocket, or would that be called the Pocket Positive. See how complicated I can make things in my mind? lol
So, my question to you today is this: Do I have a Colt Pocket Positive .32? Is that the model of my gun? Or is my gun simply a pocket version of the New Police gun, which made several models including the Police Positive?
Thanks in advance!
~ Jazz
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Driftwood Johnson
New member
No problem. I have a bookcase full of gun books, and looking up details such as that has become a fascinating part of collecting guns for me. And trust me, there is always something new to learn.
With Colt, the term 'Positive', as in Police Positive, Police Positive Special, or Pocket Positive refers to the 'positive lock' mechanism that Colt developed in 1905. This mechanism ensured that the firing pin could not strike a cartridge unless the hammer had been pulled back to full cock. Earlier Colt double action revolvers did not have that feature.
The New Pocket Model was produced from 1893 until 1905, there were approximately 30,000 produced. Serial numbers started at 1 and went up to about 30,000. In 1905 Colt began producing the Pocket Positive. Serial numbers started where the New Pocket model serial numbers left off, somewhere around 30,000, and about 130,000 were produced.
Unfortunately, it can be a little bit difficult to tell the difference from the outside because Colt continued to use New Pocket frames for about the first four years of producing the Pocket Positive. Gun companies can be tricky that way, they will often use up old stock to save money and confuse collectors. Remember what I said about how the trigger guard blends smoothly into the frame with the 'positive' models? Yours does not, there is a step where the trigger guard meets the frame. So it could be New Pocket, or an early Pocket Positive using one of the left over New Pocket frames. After all the older frames were used up, POCKET POSITIVE was marked on the barrels.
I might be able to help determine exactly what you have if you send me a note with the Serial Number. I can probably look up the date by SN, and that might help determine if it is a New Pocket or early Pocket Positive.
Regarding shooting it, remember what I said. If it says New Police on the barrel, that box of 32 Short Colt you have are too small and will rattle around in the chambers. I suspect you will find your pistol chambers 32 S&W and 32 S&W Long.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I agree, finally, that my gun is not technically a Colt New Police; however, I'm beginning to wonder if Colt meant for the model to be considered a New Police on any of the new 'police guns' they made or if they were actually referring to the Police Positive and the Pocket Positive."
"So, my question to you today is this: Do I have a Colt Pocket Positive .32? Is that the model of my gun? Or is my gun simply a pocket version of the New Police gun, which made several models including the Police Positive?"
Technically? There's no technically about it -- the New Pocket and New Police are DIFFERENT models.
You have New Pocket revolver. It is very clearly a New Pocket. I've repeatedly said that, so have others.
Yes, they are related mechanically and in size, but they were advertised and marketed as separate models of handgun.
The Police Positive and Pocket Positive were LATER mechanical variations of the New Pocket and New Police that enhanced user safety and were marked as such.
Your gun is NOT marked Pocket Positive, so it is NOT a Pocket Positive.
Notice the discussion above about Colt and S&W marking the model names on their guns.
Colt finally started marking their small frame .32s as Police Positive or Pocket Positive when those models were introduced around 1905.
Prior to that the model was NOT marked on the gun.
Around the same time Colt also changed the barrel marking to denote chambering of to their version of the .32 S&W Long from .32 New Police to simply .32 Police.
Those changes are clearly seen in this Colt Pocket Positive revolver.
"So, my question to you today is this: Do I have a Colt Pocket Positive .32? Is that the model of my gun? Or is my gun simply a pocket version of the New Police gun, which made several models including the Police Positive?"
Technically? There's no technically about it -- the New Pocket and New Police are DIFFERENT models.
You have New Pocket revolver. It is very clearly a New Pocket. I've repeatedly said that, so have others.
Yes, they are related mechanically and in size, but they were advertised and marketed as separate models of handgun.
The Police Positive and Pocket Positive were LATER mechanical variations of the New Pocket and New Police that enhanced user safety and were marked as such.
Your gun is NOT marked Pocket Positive, so it is NOT a Pocket Positive.
Notice the discussion above about Colt and S&W marking the model names on their guns.
Colt finally started marking their small frame .32s as Police Positive or Pocket Positive when those models were introduced around 1905.
Prior to that the model was NOT marked on the gun.
Around the same time Colt also changed the barrel marking to denote chambering of to their version of the .32 S&W Long from .32 New Police to simply .32 Police.
Those changes are clearly seen in this Colt Pocket Positive revolver.