Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?
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I often carry a Beretta 21 25auto, with a MecGar mag that holds 9 rounds, giving me a total of 10. It is reliable, and can rapid fire all 10 rounds in a very short period of time. If I ever have to use it, the bad guy will not know I have it till it is in his face, and all 10 are coming at him. After that, he better be watching for MY big pocket knife.
David Armstrong
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If I knew I was going to have to use it tonight, I (A): wouldn’t strap on any handgun as a first choice; and (B): wouldn’t go where I know I was going to have to use it. If I knew that I was going to go about my usual activities for the day, yes, I would (and frequently do) grab a small gun, often a .22, and feel quite comfortable with my ability to handle whatever is likely to pop up.
So what? That is the issue. How much “better” do you need to hit? Will the BG leave you alone faster if you hit him better? Not likely.
You know, that might be a pretty good example. I don’t know very many IPSC and IDPA folks that use their competition guns for carry. That might be because so many folks realize there is a difference between what is needed to score lots of points in a game and what is adequate for DGU incidents. In fact, IDPA developed a whole subcategory of the game jsut for BUGs due to popular request. And there are a whole lot of armed professionals that carry small guns the world over in various situations.
But that is not the case. Reality is that the likelihood is extremely high that you WILL NOT have to use what you are actually carrying. And that is the difference. Professionals tend to base decisions on probabilities, amateurs tend to base decisions on possibilities.
Chui-
Do you live somewhere that has zombies?
"28 Days Later" and "28 Weeks Later" type? One would like to think no. Check your newspaper and CNN, however, and they mysteriously appear (at least in major cities and the surrounding suburbs, thereof).
Question: Do you think the bastards who organized, planned and executed the OKC bombing, WTC I, Columbine, September 11th, VaTech, etc. as zombies? Did you FULLY EXPECT ANYTHING OF THE MAGNITUDE OF WTC II TO OCCUR IN THE USA IN YOUR LIFETIME? If you think or answer, "no", then you're in the norm. But they happened. And more will come.
As I said before - anyone who keeps coming after being shot at (or shot) is obviously insane, and nothing besides a CNS shot would put them down immediately.
Apparently, you cannot shoot quickly or ever witnessed a shooting. It happens very quickly and in the thread aboubt being shot some report they did not feel a lot of pain immediately. Should be a lesson in that for you...
Apparently, you are spooked by more than knives - if you think a crazed assassin bent on your destruction (at the cost of his own life) is after you.
Yes, we ALL realize that a bigger gun is better. We simply no longer feel the need to carry a big gun. We would rather be comfortable and go about our lives armed. You carry your big "rig" all you want. One day you just might say, "You know, those old guys were on to something."
"Spooked" would be an inoperative word. "Concerned" would be a much better descriptor. You pull a knife in a quarrel and you're oh, so damned close to being shot until you drop it... You see, I know what a knife can do as I've trained a bit to use them. I've also seen first hand what they can do and I want no part of that and if you're wise you'd concur.
It's good to see that you DO recognize that what you carry is less than ideal. I wasn't aware of this by reading many posts here. "Comfort" is relative. What one laughs at crushes another. I'm quite comfortable with what I carry daily and I'm extremely comfortable and proficient with it's use if it comes to it.
The only time I'll switch to something very small and more difficult to fight with will be when I can no longer carry what I do with any comfort. As long as I'm able I will go no smaller than a P30, Glock 19 or M&P9.
You know, [IDPA] might be a pretty good example. I don’t know very many IPSC and IDPA folks that use their competition guns for carry. That might be because so many folks realize there is a difference between what is needed to score lots of points in a game and what is adequate for DGU incidents. In fact, IDPA developed a whole subcategory of the game just for BUGs due to popular request. And there are a whole lot of armed professionals that carry small guns the world over in various situations.
Absolutely. They KNOW that they hit better with full-size pistols. My question is why don't they carry what they compete with? The same with those who show up at Defensive Shooting Classes with firearms they'll never have on them... Why? Several reasons: they aren't comfortable shooting over 700 rounds or more, obviously; they are SLOW to reload and they are VERY DIFFICULT to hit well with at speed (and any distance). I'd like to take several BUG classes, drills and shoot a few BUG IDPA practices & matches before I'd feel comfortable with one.
Admittedly, there are circumstances where a 340PD would be well worth having. But when those circumstances arrive I'm under no illusion about my ability to hit very well and quickly with it as compared to any mid-sized semiautomatic pistol. So being aware of one's limitations (I'm under no illusion that adherents of "micropistols" and J-Frames as primary feel that they can shoot as well with, say, a Glock 17, M&P9, 1911, P226...).
I just refuse to buy into the "I cannot conceal a mid-size or full-size pistol" for most people. Why? I work at a gunstore as a hobby (they're close friends of mine) and when I sell a pistol no more than 5% take the advice to purchase a "gun belt" and a decent holster. They wear whatever thin belt they have, they want the cheap nylon holsters and they aren't willing to alter their dress to accomodate the pistol or revolver. Many are not open to even discuss altering their dress. It's pathetic, but there it is. Modern-day Americans - Wimpus Americanus. So my vociferous defense of nothing less than mid-size and irreverence for the "comfortable" argument is based upon about 100 cases of pure ignorance. That's not to say that anyone participating in this online conversation fits that bill but statistics will say that some here have not tried good equipment to see if it fits them well. You should.
Do you live somewhere that has zombies?
"28 Days Later" and "28 Weeks Later" type? One would like to think no. Check your newspaper and CNN, however, and they mysteriously appear (at least in major cities and the surrounding suburbs, thereof).
Question: Do you think the bastards who organized, planned and executed the OKC bombing, WTC I, Columbine, September 11th, VaTech, etc. as zombies? Did you FULLY EXPECT ANYTHING OF THE MAGNITUDE OF WTC II TO OCCUR IN THE USA IN YOUR LIFETIME? If you think or answer, "no", then you're in the norm. But they happened. And more will come.
As I said before - anyone who keeps coming after being shot at (or shot) is obviously insane, and nothing besides a CNS shot would put them down immediately.
Apparently, you cannot shoot quickly or ever witnessed a shooting. It happens very quickly and in the thread aboubt being shot some report they did not feel a lot of pain immediately. Should be a lesson in that for you...
Apparently, you are spooked by more than knives - if you think a crazed assassin bent on your destruction (at the cost of his own life) is after you.
Yes, we ALL realize that a bigger gun is better. We simply no longer feel the need to carry a big gun. We would rather be comfortable and go about our lives armed. You carry your big "rig" all you want. One day you just might say, "You know, those old guys were on to something."
"Spooked" would be an inoperative word. "Concerned" would be a much better descriptor. You pull a knife in a quarrel and you're oh, so damned close to being shot until you drop it... You see, I know what a knife can do as I've trained a bit to use them. I've also seen first hand what they can do and I want no part of that and if you're wise you'd concur.
It's good to see that you DO recognize that what you carry is less than ideal. I wasn't aware of this by reading many posts here. "Comfort" is relative. What one laughs at crushes another. I'm quite comfortable with what I carry daily and I'm extremely comfortable and proficient with it's use if it comes to it.
The only time I'll switch to something very small and more difficult to fight with will be when I can no longer carry what I do with any comfort. As long as I'm able I will go no smaller than a P30, Glock 19 or M&P9.
You know, [IDPA] might be a pretty good example. I don’t know very many IPSC and IDPA folks that use their competition guns for carry. That might be because so many folks realize there is a difference between what is needed to score lots of points in a game and what is adequate for DGU incidents. In fact, IDPA developed a whole subcategory of the game just for BUGs due to popular request. And there are a whole lot of armed professionals that carry small guns the world over in various situations.
Absolutely. They KNOW that they hit better with full-size pistols. My question is why don't they carry what they compete with? The same with those who show up at Defensive Shooting Classes with firearms they'll never have on them... Why? Several reasons: they aren't comfortable shooting over 700 rounds or more, obviously; they are SLOW to reload and they are VERY DIFFICULT to hit well with at speed (and any distance). I'd like to take several BUG classes, drills and shoot a few BUG IDPA practices & matches before I'd feel comfortable with one.
Admittedly, there are circumstances where a 340PD would be well worth having. But when those circumstances arrive I'm under no illusion about my ability to hit very well and quickly with it as compared to any mid-sized semiautomatic pistol. So being aware of one's limitations (I'm under no illusion that adherents of "micropistols" and J-Frames as primary feel that they can shoot as well with, say, a Glock 17, M&P9, 1911, P226...).
I just refuse to buy into the "I cannot conceal a mid-size or full-size pistol" for most people. Why? I work at a gunstore as a hobby (they're close friends of mine) and when I sell a pistol no more than 5% take the advice to purchase a "gun belt" and a decent holster. They wear whatever thin belt they have, they want the cheap nylon holsters and they aren't willing to alter their dress to accomodate the pistol or revolver. Many are not open to even discuss altering their dress. It's pathetic, but there it is. Modern-day Americans - Wimpus Americanus. So my vociferous defense of nothing less than mid-size and irreverence for the "comfortable" argument is based upon about 100 cases of pure ignorance. That's not to say that anyone participating in this online conversation fits that bill but statistics will say that some here have not tried good equipment to see if it fits them well. You should.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Chui
I shoot pretty well, pretty quickly. I have seen shootings and I know a little bit about knives. I certainly don't need to prove myself to you.
The WTC attacks have little to do with self defense. If they bring the war to me I have more than enough "big guns" for the job.
Maybe the people you have sold guns to know something you don't. You don't need a "duty belt" for most carry. You should be glad they are gun owners, rather than condescending toward them. You seem typical of the gun shop commandos that turn people off to "gun people." I have seen hundreds like you- you think you know more than anyone else-regardless of their situation. It is YOU sir, that is the ignorant one.
I shoot pretty well, pretty quickly. I have seen shootings and I know a little bit about knives. I certainly don't need to prove myself to you.
The WTC attacks have little to do with self defense. If they bring the war to me I have more than enough "big guns" for the job.
Maybe the people you have sold guns to know something you don't. You don't need a "duty belt" for most carry. You should be glad they are gun owners, rather than condescending toward them. You seem typical of the gun shop commandos that turn people off to "gun people." I have seen hundreds like you- you think you know more than anyone else-regardless of their situation. It is YOU sir, that is the ignorant one.
.22 over the .25.
.22WMR over the .22LR.
NAA mini-magnum revolver in .22WMR by far over the .22LR mini-revolver.
.22WMR as primary and only SD weapon over .22LR or .25ACP. You'll always carry it if push comes to shove..
Of course, I prefer a snub in .38+P, or a 9, but I think .22WMR is adequate. Just learn to shoot it accurately.
I refuse to carry a large handgun concealed. Carry for me, by choice, is in a front pocket only. The chances of justifiably needing to display or use the weapon, for the average citizen in relatively 'good' surrounds, is so 'miniscule' as to justify carrying a .22LR, or even .25ACP, if you are so inclined, and nothing else.
.22WMR over the .22LR.
NAA mini-magnum revolver in .22WMR by far over the .22LR mini-revolver.
.22WMR as primary and only SD weapon over .22LR or .25ACP. You'll always carry it if push comes to shove..
Of course, I prefer a snub in .38+P, or a 9, but I think .22WMR is adequate. Just learn to shoot it accurately.
I refuse to carry a large handgun concealed. Carry for me, by choice, is in a front pocket only. The chances of justifiably needing to display or use the weapon, for the average citizen in relatively 'good' surrounds, is so 'miniscule' as to justify carrying a .22LR, or even .25ACP, if you are so inclined, and nothing else.
I love my NAA mini-mag. Don't count on it, though, for defense purposes beyond 3-7 yards, if that much, unless you practice thoroughly with it. Wonderful gun!
My advise is to get that over the .22LR version-don't even bother with that. If any indication, check gello tests:
.22LR
http://brassfetcher.com/22minis.html
.22WMR
http://brassfetcher.com/NAAminiRevolver22Magnum.html
Wildalaska
Moderator
As opposed to internet Rambois Commandonenis
I love guys wearing Glock 17s with a BUG and two reloads in an town where there hasn't been a crime since 1948.
Bill said the rest.
WildicarryagentlemansgunAlaska TM
GNLaFrance
New member
Keltyke said:
mikejonestkd
New member
La France,
its a true story, i remember it making the news a while back, yes, he shot through the house and it still had enough left to kill his wife.
back on topic - carry something that is comfortable so you won't leave it at home and a get a gun that you are confident with. Caliber is not a primary consideration.
its a true story, i remember it making the news a while back, yes, he shot through the house and it still had enough left to kill his wife.
back on topic - carry something that is comfortable so you won't leave it at home and a get a gun that you are confident with. Caliber is not a primary consideration.
Gimme a break, dude. Where did I ask you to "prove yourself to me?"
Furthermore, I deny any responsibility for your safety so if you're good at what you do then great. You've truly lost me on that... At any rate maybe you live in "Pleasantville" where there is never any personal crime. Some of us don't. And many of the persons I interface with at the gun store live in "hell holes"...The WTC attacks unmasked much about the mindless tendency of many; namely "it cannot happen here" syndrome... It's very germane to this conversation. It may be a reach for some but depending on your view of what transpired we were totally unprepared. That is the point. Many (on both sides of this little "debate") haven't truly thought about their safety much.
No, they don't "know something I don't". Don't expose yourself, please. Perhaps what you've experienced is EXACTLY what you describe. What I do is something wholly different, but in your omniscience you know ALL about how I approach customers...
And, no, I don't know more than anyone about their situation (only a fool wouldn't ask them now would they prior to assisting them picking out a firearm
). You may need to drop the assuming about something/someone you know precious little about.Bill DeShivs
New member
I live in a nice suburb.
I work at the largest jail/justice complex in the south. It's in Memphis-one of the murder and crime capitals of the country, thank you. I have seen tanks on Main Street (1968), and martial law/National Guard troops several times during riots. Gang thugs are everywhere. I have experienced things you can't imagine. I am COMPLETELY prepared for most anything. I simply carry a .32 as my primary gun. I keep others handy at all times.
Your gun customers, like you, will have to figure it out for themselves. Good equipment makes carrying a big gun more comfortable, but not as comfortable as my .32.
I work at the largest jail/justice complex in the south. It's in Memphis-one of the murder and crime capitals of the country, thank you. I have seen tanks on Main Street (1968), and martial law/National Guard troops several times during riots. Gang thugs are everywhere. I have experienced things you can't imagine. I am COMPLETELY prepared for most anything. I simply carry a .32 as my primary gun. I keep others handy at all times.
Your gun customers, like you, will have to figure it out for themselves. Good equipment makes carrying a big gun more comfortable, but not as comfortable as my .32.
I, too, live in a very "nice" suburb but Hades isn't far away at all and it's in every direction you choose to look. Detroit Metro aint no nirvana and there are plenty of places outside of Detroit that are fast becoming dangerous due to the economic climate in the state of Michigan. Sales are up despite the economy; from my very limited perspective it's not the "repeat purchaser" when the economy was better. It's the new purchaser or someone who is not considered a "shooter". CPL classes are also filled 1 to 1.5 months in advance. No matter what they purchase (I only advise them to rent the model or something similar before they purchase) I always inform them that a good belt and holster is required.
We agree - everyone will have to come to his/her own level of preparedness responsibility and comfort.
How much does size matter?
There's I think a false sense of security that get's inadvertantly
promoted, when people focus so much on 'caliber size' and 'the percentage of one-stop kills...' The .357 mag. gets a sterling reputation for being a true manstopper ie. a 125gr.hollowpoint .357 gets the reputation of almost being a kind of super bullet. In reality ,however, the .357mag. is far from being a magic bullet - and in a snubbie, it's a bit brutal in regard to recoil and muzzle blast.
What gets overlooked in a lot of discussions about caliber effectiveness - is the reality of self defense. It's easy to demonstrate how one might eliminate a target with the right weapon and caliber, but the very hard part of the equation is being able to demonstrate how someone is going to be able to actually grab a weapon and use it effectively in a self defense situation.
I can shoot targets at the range all day, but in the real world when my attacker has surprised me a bit...and he's only 5 ft. away from me - I need self-defense skills that revolve more around my ability to come up quickly with a concealed weapon rather than the tactics that just revolve around the size of the bullet chambered.
The .25acp and good tactical skills trumps a .357mag. and poor tactical skills. If the bad guy see's the print of my full-size auto or my midsized revolver and takes it away from me - it does me no good. The tiny gun in my pocket might be the best weapon to have. If I can use it with skill, then it might make sense to carry it frequently.
The .25acp is not my nightstand gun, and it's not the gun I take in the great outdoors. The .25acp , however, is the little gun that I am carrying when you think I'm not carrying anything at all. Yeah, when I'm dressed like that cop in short pants on RENO 911, the .25acp is what's in my pocket.
There's I think a false sense of security that get's inadvertantlypromoted, when people focus so much on 'caliber size' and 'the percentage of one-stop kills...' The .357 mag. gets a sterling reputation for being a true manstopper ie. a 125gr.hollowpoint .357 gets the reputation of almost being a kind of super bullet. In reality ,however, the .357mag. is far from being a magic bullet - and in a snubbie, it's a bit brutal in regard to recoil and muzzle blast.
What gets overlooked in a lot of discussions about caliber effectiveness - is the reality of self defense. It's easy to demonstrate how one might eliminate a target with the right weapon and caliber, but the very hard part of the equation is being able to demonstrate how someone is going to be able to actually grab a weapon and use it effectively in a self defense situation.
I can shoot targets at the range all day, but in the real world when my attacker has surprised me a bit...and he's only 5 ft. away from me - I need self-defense skills that revolve more around my ability to come up quickly with a concealed weapon rather than the tactics that just revolve around the size of the bullet chambered.
The .25acp and good tactical skills trumps a .357mag. and poor tactical skills. If the bad guy see's the print of my full-size auto or my midsized revolver and takes it away from me - it does me no good. The tiny gun in my pocket might be the best weapon to have. If I can use it with skill, then it might make sense to carry it frequently.
The .25acp is not my nightstand gun, and it's not the gun I take in the great outdoors. The .25acp , however, is the little gun that I am carrying when you think I'm not carrying anything at all. Yeah, when I'm dressed like that cop in short pants on RENO 911, the .25acp is what's in my pocket.
GNLaFrance
New member
mikejonestkd said:
But my question was, why was he mounting the satellite dish inside the house? My TV satellite dish is out in the back yard. I don't think it would work as well if it were in the house.
I think one of two things:
1.) The story got garbled; he was outside and his wife was inside, or
2.) He wasn't trying to mount the dish inside, he was trying to make a hole for the cable, and was too lazy to get out the drill.
I think 2.) makes more sense.
Dishonest? Like saying almost never is different than "rare". Like over looking my point that the civilian use of a concealed weapon is extremely low yet folks like us still carry. Like advocating a caliber you know is simply not capable of consistently causing the damage needed to stop an assault especially under the pressure of an armed conflict. Who's being dishonest here David?
By your own words you know a civilian gun use event is "rare". Still you carry. I prepare for both rare and very rare. Seems much less a gap than needing the gun to begin with. You OTOH prepare for rare but not very rare....that seems hypocritical. Especially when the difference is only a few ounces away.
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