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Why Not a Blue Gun?
- Thread starter Model12Win
- Start date
I'm frankly aghast that any "professional" would point an operational firearm at someone outside of the need to use said firearm. I'm more surprised a "professional trainer" would allow or encourage such a scenario.
I used the word negligent earlier. I'm of the opinion this has passed the point of civil negligence and falls under criminal standards.
I used the word negligent earlier. I'm of the opinion this has passed the point of civil negligence and falls under criminal standards.
Deaf Smith
New member
Why Not a Blue Gun?
Cause they are to cheap, lazy, inept, careless, think they are God... take your pick.
I have a 'red' gun and if I did simulations I'd use a simulation gun that cannot use real ammo.
But then I ain't a trainer, cop or otherwise, who thinks they can't make mistakes.
Deaf
just another opinion...
First, I dont understand what could the officer could have possibly been doing with a gun training citizen patrols. I just dont get that part, or why he may have pointed the gun at the woman... and yes, he did violate the most basic gun safety.
I was trained in the use of the police service revolver and pistol in the police academy... two madatory trips a year including role playing, classroom work, practice range, qualifying range, and inspection of firearms... (not in that order)... During the role playing we used real guns. Mostly revolvers, but glocks as well.
One or two role playing scenario's would always be a perp trying to kill the officer. What we had was red barrel guns and yellow barrel guns. Yellow barrel would not chamber any ammo. Red barrel would only chamber a cut down casing loaded with a primer only. In order to participate in role playing an officer would have to turn in what ever guns he had at the range (Usually two). I always chose to be a bad guy, and usually chose a full sized revolver, a small revolver, and a small auto... I always won... because I cheated like a bad guy would...
Back to the OP's question .... NO ONE IMO should train with ANY firearm capable of chambering or firering live ammo.
First, I dont understand what could the officer could have possibly been doing with a gun training citizen patrols. I just dont get that part, or why he may have pointed the gun at the woman... and yes, he did violate the most basic gun safety.
I was trained in the use of the police service revolver and pistol in the police academy... two madatory trips a year including role playing, classroom work, practice range, qualifying range, and inspection of firearms... (not in that order)... During the role playing we used real guns. Mostly revolvers, but glocks as well.
One or two role playing scenario's would always be a perp trying to kill the officer. What we had was red barrel guns and yellow barrel guns. Yellow barrel would not chamber any ammo. Red barrel would only chamber a cut down casing loaded with a primer only. In order to participate in role playing an officer would have to turn in what ever guns he had at the range (Usually two). I always chose to be a bad guy, and usually chose a full sized revolver, a small revolver, and a small auto... I always won... because I cheated like a bad guy would...
Back to the OP's question .... NO ONE IMO should train with ANY firearm capable of chambering or firering live ammo.
It literally floors me that this happened. It's bee pointed out that literally dozens of individual failures took place before that happened, and the largest of them all was that from the very top of the chart, that chief of police was unaware that his men were pointing real guns at people and pulling the trigger. There are so many mistakes all the way down the chart, and as was said, dozens of missed safety opportunities.
Brandon Lee was killed by a barrel plug. That begs the question, what sort of freaking idiot goes on a movie set and aims a real gun dead center at a man's chest and pulls the trigger? Following gun safety rules, why wasn't it pointed to the side, since NOBODY would know?
Almost fifty years ago, on the set of a television cop show, some brain donor started fooling around with his blank loaded, but real pistol, put it at his temple and fired, good Lord, in all of his times with blanks on set, did he not know what would happen?
The simple fact is that there should be a range managter wherever guns are being handled by many whose complete responsibility is to keep track of every gun and round of ammo. Not a trainer, a man dedicated to safety, with no other duties.
Something needs to be said. The idea that we shouldn't point at something we don't want to kill should be worded "don't want to destroy." I know a guy who shot his television. I knew a guy who kept sharp for deer season by dry firing at his neighbor's dogs.
I've always nagged at people to think of their firearm like a laser, or space weapon, and that the shot would penetrate everything out to eternity. An AD might not hit anyone inside the immediate vicinity, but how safe is that school bus that just passed buy as your rifle discharged?
Brandon Lee was killed by a barrel plug. That begs the question, what sort of freaking idiot goes on a movie set and aims a real gun dead center at a man's chest and pulls the trigger? Following gun safety rules, why wasn't it pointed to the side, since NOBODY would know?
Almost fifty years ago, on the set of a television cop show, some brain donor started fooling around with his blank loaded, but real pistol, put it at his temple and fired, good Lord, in all of his times with blanks on set, did he not know what would happen?
The simple fact is that there should be a range managter wherever guns are being handled by many whose complete responsibility is to keep track of every gun and round of ammo. Not a trainer, a man dedicated to safety, with no other duties.
Something needs to be said. The idea that we shouldn't point at something we don't want to kill should be worded "don't want to destroy." I know a guy who shot his television. I knew a guy who kept sharp for deer season by dry firing at his neighbor's dogs.
I've always nagged at people to think of their firearm like a laser, or space weapon, and that the shot would penetrate everything out to eternity. An AD might not hit anyone inside the immediate vicinity, but how safe is that school bus that just passed buy as your rifle discharged?
But my question is: why was an actual service pistol used in this training session at all? Why not a blue dummy gun or similar training pistol? Even an airsoft pistol? Is using an actual live service pistol in these types of training scenarios widespread? What makes that superior to using a dummy gun, even a $15 airsoft pistol from Wal-Mart?
All of my LE training involving pointing a weapon at a real person has been done with dedicated simunition firearms or plastic dummy guns. Officers are told not to bring any ammo or knives into the training area and are pat-searched to verify.
Good realistic training will involve pointing a firearm at a real person during scenarios. Such training will also involve safety measures to ensure a real bullet doesn't have the opportunity to accidentally kill someone.
Since one of the prime directives of shooting is never point at something that you aren't willing to destroy, I'd be shouting "are y'all crazy!?" and probably trying my best to get out of that situation.
As a civilian, doing training, my god, I'd have told the fellas just how stupid that idea was, walked out, and asked for an audience with the chief.
As a civilian, doing training, my god, I'd have told the fellas just how stupid that idea was, walked out, and asked for an audience with the chief.
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Aren't we repeating ourselves?
Does it boil down to that we are unable to use real firearms with the appropriate ammo (not blanks)?
Having been in about 7 or 8 exercises with real revolvers and sim type rounds - I survived. However, as I said before we were ultra-careful. It sounds like this outfit wasn't. The officer didn't sound like he was top-notch as compared to the national level folks I interacted with.
Now, we've switched to airsoft for the most part. Probably a good move.
Now some folks weren't even ok with blue guns, airsoft or sims. That IMHO is too extreme as then no training that is useful can occur.
Does it boil down to that we are unable to use real firearms with the appropriate ammo (not blanks)?
Having been in about 7 or 8 exercises with real revolvers and sim type rounds - I survived. However, as I said before we were ultra-careful. It sounds like this outfit wasn't. The officer didn't sound like he was top-notch as compared to the national level folks I interacted with.
Now, we've switched to airsoft for the most part. Probably a good move.
Now some folks weren't even ok with blue guns, airsoft or sims. That IMHO is too extreme as then no training that is useful can occur.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
What experience level were the participants at? Not just those in charge of training, but students? My impression is the students in this event were not familiar with firearms. It seems to me, due to her ignorance of the subject, she was blindly trusting the government official placed in authority. This does not seem to be a case of 'we have pushed blue guns and solid plastic barrels as far as we can, so it is time to take it to the next level.' This seems more like 'I'm the only one in the room professional enough to...'Having been in about 7 or 8 exercises with real revolvers and sim type rounds - I survived.
They weren't training. They were putting on a show.
I've never done training with real firearms where someone pulls the trigger pointed at someone else. I wouldn't categorically rule it out in some situations, but it would certainly involve everyone present clearing the gun independently and only people who were knowledgeable enough to know they SHOULD do so and knew how to. Not people who may have never handled a gun before.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I mentioned before that the exercises were with well trained folks with lots of checking and precautions.
My comments were aimed at the absolutist statements that included not even pointing blue guns at people.
Of course, this incident was a failure of that organization.
My comments were aimed at the absolutist statements that included not even pointing blue guns at people.
Of course, this incident was a failure of that organization.
Now some folks weren't even ok with blue guns, airsoft or sims. That IMHO is too extreme as then no training that is useful can occur.
Agreed, that is way over the top. Training needs to be accomplished and using your gun as a finger as you yell bang doesn't cut it. But man, those sim rounds can really wake you up when you get smacked by one..lol.
Old Bill Dibble
New member
Honestly you can really tell who hasn't served in the military or done realistic training by reading this thread. Every force on force training I ever did for 24 years in the service involved pointing real assault weapons at people. Some of these involved civilian role players.
The majority of the time it was blanks, a number of time sim rounds. I never once felt unsafe. Never once was there a training accident involving live ammunition anywhere I was stationed or even heard about where live ammo was not supposed to be in use.
As a police officer our department does this type training about once a year, excluding the two weeks spent at the academy doing it. I have never heard of such an accident until this one.
The majority of the time it was blanks, a number of time sim rounds. I never once felt unsafe. Never once was there a training accident involving live ammunition anywhere I was stationed or even heard about where live ammo was not supposed to be in use.
As a police officer our department does this type training about once a year, excluding the two weeks spent at the academy doing it. I have never heard of such an accident until this one.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Um, how to respond when it's a REAL gun?!
Disarming tactics, for one thing.
Plus, there's a real adrenaline rush when there's actual consequences like a painful airsoft pellets or paintballs.
Not to mention, the Internet Commando (and the non-Commando alike) will quite quickly realize what does and does NOT work under realistic circumstances.
Besides, it's not a gun if it's a Blue Gun or a Simunition or an Airsoft. Only guns are guns. The lessons are the same though, except safe.
Disarming tactics, for one thing.
Plus, there's a real adrenaline rush when there's actual consequences like a painful airsoft pellets or paintballs.
Not to mention, the Internet Commando (and the non-Commando alike) will quite quickly realize what does and does NOT work under realistic circumstances.
Besides, it's not a gun if it's a Blue Gun or a Simunition or an Airsoft. Only guns are guns. The lessons are the same though, except safe.
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a 73 year old lady is not a good student for such a lesson as that.
i'm not convinced, but i'm in the minority, so carry on. keep pointing guns at each other, and maybe no one will get hurt.
me? if i have a gun pointed at me, i'm pointing mine at them and likely pulling the trigger. i'm too old to wrestle, too slow to run away from someone younger and faster.
i'm not convinced, but i'm in the minority, so carry on. keep pointing guns at each other, and maybe no one will get hurt.
me? if i have a gun pointed at me, i'm pointing mine at them and likely pulling the trigger. i'm too old to wrestle, too slow to run away from someone younger and faster.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
1-DAB said:keep pointing guns at each other, and maybe no one will get hurt.
You keep saying that over and over like you can make it true if you say it enough.
Blue guns, airsoft and simunition modified guns ARE NOT GUNS.
Only real guns are guns.
What age is someone too old to learn? Why can't the elderly be trained?
They were attempting to illustrate how suddenly things can change on the streets with police encounters.what are people, including elderly ladies, expected to learn by having a gun pointed at them?
They seemed to have accomplished that, albeit not in the manner they intended
don't yell at me, i didn't point a gun at anyone. go yell at the officer who killed the lady. yell at his boss. and his boss's boss.
someone taught him that what he intended to do was ok. wasn't me.
at my last concealed carry class refresher, the instructor at one point pulled out his blue gun, and all during his handling of it, he made it a point that it was never pointed at the class. it was always pointed down range (classroom adjacent to the indoor range), in what he considered a safe direction.
if you want to learn how to engage in hand to hand combat, knock yourself out. i contend that a 73 year old lady was not a good student for such a lesson. if anything, she should have been taught how to draw and shoot safely and accurately. but Barney denied that chance to her.
someone taught him that what he intended to do was ok. wasn't me.
at my last concealed carry class refresher, the instructor at one point pulled out his blue gun, and all during his handling of it, he made it a point that it was never pointed at the class. it was always pointed down range (classroom adjacent to the indoor range), in what he considered a safe direction.
if you want to learn how to engage in hand to hand combat, knock yourself out. i contend that a 73 year old lady was not a good student for such a lesson. if anything, she should have been taught how to draw and shoot safely and accurately. but Barney denied that chance to her.