Why Not a Blue Gun?

That is the logical fallacy of False Equivalence. We're talking about trusted folks, in a known scenario, with known "Blue Gun" fake weapons.

What someone can do on the street with a can of spray paint is completely irrelevant.
 
we'll have to disagree on this.

i treat all guns as loaded. all guns. real guns, BB guns, toy guns that look like real guns, training guns, loaded guns, unloaded guns....all guns. it makes life simple. treat all guns as loaded.

if you and your friends want to train/play/horse around with whatever gun you have handy, knock yourself out, i won't be there.

that cop no doubt assumed his gun was unloaded. obviously it wasn't.

as for the 'fake blue guns' used for training, they are also cheaper to have around and show someone how to perform certain tasks with. but you should be teaching at the same time safe gun handling. treat it as loaded. keep it pointed in a safe direction......

how many people have been shot by unloaded guns? oh, the gun wasn't unloaded. oops. if they hadn't been pointing it at themselves or others, they still be around to debate gun safety.

on to the next thread.
 
As with a lot of things these days, what ever happened to common sense?

It seems for many anymore, following all the rules and regulations to the letter, is more important than life itself, and in many cases, trying to do so, will likely bring that to an end.
 
1-DAB said:
we'll have to disagree on this.

i treat all guns as loaded. all guns. real guns, BB guns, toy guns that look like real guns, training guns, loaded guns, unloaded guns....all guns. it makes life simple. treat all guns as loaded.

if you and your friends want to train/play/horse around with whatever gun you have handy, knock yourself out, i won't be there.

that cop no doubt assumed his gun was unloaded. obviously it wasn't.

as for the 'fake blue guns' used for training, they are also cheaper to have around and show someone how to perform certain tasks with. but you should be teaching at the same time safe gun handling. treat it as loaded. keep it pointed in a safe direction......

how many people have been shot by unloaded guns? oh, the gun wasn't unloaded. oops. if they hadn't been pointing it at themselves or others, they still be around to debate gun safety.

on to the next thread.
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And your requirements completely eliminate the possibility of ANY form of realistic training by EVERY human being on earth, besides eliminating entire sports (paint ball).

That, besides being demonstrably illogical and impossibly convoluted.

Imagine your child makes a rubber band "gun", or a lego "gun" or a POP TART "gun", they're supposed to "Follow the 4 Rules" because it's a "gun"? What about the Paint "Gun" in my dad's garage that he paints cars with? He's supposed to follow the 4 Rules? That's just ridiculous.

Just because the name includes "gun" doesn't mean it IS a gun.

We're not talking about "unloaded" guns. We're talking about THINGS THAT AREN'T guns AT ALL.
 
Blue guns are disappearing from training except for retention and capture techniques. Even my little department in a small corner of the hinterlands uses a simuntion upper on the officer's duty weapon for FOF training. These will not chamber and fire live rounds.

Failure on a systemic level here.



ETA- I don't think I made it clear that I am pretty angry about this. It is completely and totally inexcusable for someone to die in this way. Finding and attaching blame are all part of it but my only real hope is that whatever went wrong goes out everywhere so this failure is not repeated.
 
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And then there was the child thrownout of school and busted for eating his pop-tart into the shape of a gun.Its not a blue gun,its a pop-tart gun,and its always loaded.
There are real dangers,and imagined ones.This woman was unfortunately killed by a real danger.

The only danger from a blue training firearm is imaginary or emotional.

If you choose to rule your own life with imaginary,emotional fears,be my guest.Please do not attempt to impose that rule on others.

Talking about muzzle discipline(or the 4 rules) is one step.Using a blue gun in lieu of a real firearm gives an opportunity to practice the 4 rules without risk as competence is developed.

Word I get from the small LEO contact I have,the dedicated responsible cops try to have range time about once a month.Many skip it.And many were never shooters,they just got a government job.

That's not good enough for a FOF scenario about an active shooter in a school or hostage situation.Clumsy there results in death by friendly fire.A team entry to clear a room?

New doctrine is,responding officers on scene go in.Waiting on SWAT is yesterday.Higher competence is required of everyone.That requires training,with weapons or props.

Lets not forget our military trains with firearms,and firearms get pointed.


No,I'm not dismissing the 4 rules.

There always needs to be multiple layers of safety.For example,if you concealed carry,we rely on the holster as one more layer of safety.I suggest that carrying concealed,the muzzle will sweep some part of the carriers body several times a day,and yes,its loaded.
Life will never be without risk.Not training carries it's own risk.But don't be in a situation where one,or even two acts of human fallibility results in tragedy.

Count on Murphy's law.
 
What HiBC said:
No,I'm not dismissing the 4 rules.
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Nor am I.

But they didn't have a blue 'training weapon' ithey had a real, loaded, safety-off-ready-to-fire-which-it-(reportedly)-did gun. And that's a training device.
That's a big difference in a training exercise.
I'm not aware of a (actual) blue, hard-rubber / plastic training gun every killing someone because it fired a real round.

It's a tragedy, gross negligence, and should be criminally actionable, at least as involuntary manslaughter. Whose at fault, that's for a jury to decide.
 
Getting past the real gun issue for a moment and I agree it is an issue especially when civilian's are involved I am certainly not trying to make light of that, how freaking hard is it to open the chamber and clear a firearm, bullets don't just magically appear after that. I am just sitting here stewing over the complete and total stupidity of this guy, just mind boggling to me when this stuff happens.
 
I do not know what happened.

One way to create a bad situation is to start with an unloaded chamber,and a loaded magazine.

Then,by force of habit,without really checking,go through the motions of clearing the firearm,for the benefit of all the noobs watching you,to be politically correct.
Especially if your mouth is flapping while you do it.The brain is involved with being important.

Now,with the firm belief the pistol has just been cleared,a round was just chambered.
And it is "unloaded"
 
armedleo said:
I don't think he thought his gun was unloaded. I think he forgot it was.
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Which is why Rule 1, as stated by Jeff Cooper and used at schools like Gunsite, is, "All guns are always loaded." There's no qualification or admission of a possibility that the gun is not loaded. Therefore, there's no way to forget that a gun is loaded.

Therefore, for certain types of training we use --

  1. a "blue" gun. A blue, training gun isn't a gun. It's a solid lump of plastic (with some metal embedded in it for weight). It has no moving parts and can't actually do anything.

  2. A gun modified with a properly designed training barrel. Such a barrel is distinctly colored plastic with no bore and no chamber.

  3. airsoft. An airsoft gun fires a 6mm, plastic ball propelled by propane gas. It can not chamber or fire actual ammunition.

  4. Simunitions. A Simunition gun is distinctively colored and has been modified to fire only Simunitions. A gun thus modified can not fire actual ammunition.

  5. Simunitions are supposed to be used under a strict safety protocol. No real guns or live ammunition are permitted anywhere near where the training is being conducted. Participants empty their pockets and are permitted no metal on their persons. They are wanded to make sure that they have no metal on their persons. Appropriate safety gear is worn.
 
Our simmuntion modifications are the same color as the officer's weapons (pistol, rifle, shotgun). They are a bit lighter and of course the ammo is lighter but otherwise the same.

But yep the rule forever has been not to have live ammo anywhere near the training environment. This whole thing is tragic.
 
I don't think he thought his gun was unloaded. I think he forgot it was.
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It was a revolver that was supposed to be loaded with blanks.

No one seems to know where the live ammo came from, or how it was loaded without someone noticing the difference.
 
So it turns out the officer/shooter was previously terminated from his last police job at Miramar P D; fired while on probation for two excessive force complaints that came in back to back. Although "cleared" of the allegations, the I A investigation found policy and procedure violations and fired him.

We call that a red flag.

Okay. Here's the problem in Florida - and it may not be unique to Florida - but I do this for a living. The better paying departments are in Dade and Broward Counties - Miramar is in Broward and is a very professional agency and all the latest technology and equipment for its officers. They pay quite well. Once an officer is fired from a major department in Dade and/or Broward it is highly unlikely any other agency will hire him. So, these fired officers migrate north to the poor parts of the state. The agencies are undermanned and don't pay very well. That's how these guys can (and do) eventually get hired again and again, termination after termination. They hardly ever lose their state credentials (virtually impossible to lift) so as long at they remain in good standing with FDLE (the police regulatory agency) they're good to go. Horrible system.
 
I've had federal training, all their training and fake guns were painted according to what they are. I forget what the exact colors meant, something like green=simulator, red=disabled (firing pin pulled and barrel blocked) or fake, blue=simunition. The only time you ever saw a real (unpainted) gun was on a range. Anywhere else, if it was not painted, something was wrong.
 
I saw an article quoting the police chief as saying that he was unaware that ammunition in that caliber was available. I have no idea what that means, whether it was some type of gun so obscure that ammo is hard to find, or just that it was, for example, a .38 special, and he thought his department only stocked 9 mm.
 
Whatever that means is right! I think the chief is better served by simply saying, "No comment," and wait till the investigation is complete.

If he's a chief and is unaware of that caliber being available (anywhere?) or unaware of its manufacture or being ignorant of what ammo is around his police department he doesn't need to be chief. After all, the buck stops with him.
 
If they were using blanks indoors...

Blanks aren't safe at the ranges found indoors.

There are very good simulators. Much better than solid blue guns of 20 years ago. There is no excuse for not using one, especially in a department that should have considerable training resources available to officers.
 
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