Why no makarov in 9mm?

There was a very strong interest in Makarov guns as off duty guns in the LEO world and there was a site dedicated to only Makarov. Like all other things in the past it has faded away but, it was there for sure. There were field repair kits that included springs and other parts and the one that came with the barrel included the barrel press.

I really don't care if you refuse to accept the information as credible or not. However, I do believe you are being very condescending and terse! You wanted backup and you got back up. Do you want my first born child now to stay on this forum and state my opinions?

I am sorry that I just don't fit in the mind set of the clique that resides on here. As stated before, I do my own thinking and form my own conclusions based on real life experiences. Lighten up guy, this is just the internet and a source of amusement that's all. Peace..:D
 
agent109 said:
...I really don't care if you refuse to accept the information as credible or not....
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It's fine that you don't care. Because based on my review of your posting history here and on THR, I will not be inclined to accept your claims, opinions or information as credible without good evidence.

Credibility is earned.

agent109 said:
...I do believe you are being very condescending and terse!...
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Yes indeed. I'm known for that -- two of my more endearing qualities.

agent109 said:
...this is just the internet and a source of amusement that's all.....
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I'm glad you find the Internet amusing. However, not everyone comes here just for amusement. The Internet has the potential for also being a source of worthwhile information.

As it states in the Rules of this board, the mission of TFL is to be:
...a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership....
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I was having a discussion before your angst got tangled in it?:(




There is a clique of so called, self proclamation experts on all these forums. I am here for the fun of it and to pass the time of day.

Once again. It is only the internet and it is full of experts on anything and everything. Must one be a member of the herd to survive? What happened on another website is by no means reverent to what has transpired here sir. You got mad and that is the simple of it.

The great Winston Churchill once stated, and I quote:


"You got enemies, good. That means you stood up for something in your life"


“If you have an important point to make, don’t try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time-a tremendous whack.”

Sir Winston Churchill


The best way to solve an argument is to walk away, as I am doing now. You can start up again on me after dinner if you like:D Peace!
 
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“If you have an important point to make, don’t try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time-a tremendous whack.”

Sir Winston Churchill
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As has been pointed out very clearly, documented facts would render the pile driver unnecessary to any thinking, open minded person. :D
 
End of the show? Awww..

There are experts everywhere, but not all of us here are. An expert knows, so he only talks. His opinion is the standard because he knows. There is no clique here as I can see. I don't know any of the guys here. More than often I don't agree 100% with any one piece of info I get from reading the posts. But yet I learn a lot by putting pieces together.

So long. It has been quite entertaining.

-TL
 
The best way to solve an argument is to walk away, as I am doing now.
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The best way to "solve" an argument is to prove your point, or accept that someone else has disproved it once that becomes obvious.

Walking away may end the argument but it solves nothing.
There is a clique of so called, self proclamation experts on all these forums.
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There are certainly some folks on internet forums who proclaim themselves to be experts and expect others to kowtow to them regardless of what they post. People like that usually don't last long on TFL because here, the membership expects people to provide facts and logical arguments to back up their claims. Simply proclaiming one's self to be an expert doesn't buy a member anything.
...your angst...There is a clique...You got mad...you are being...
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You're working very hard to make this personal, but it's not personal at all. This is purely about the facts.
Do you want my first born child now to stay on this forum and state my opinions?
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Absolute nonsense. You're welcome to stay on the forum and post what you like as long as you stay within the rules you agreed to when you registered.

No one has suggested that you aren't allowed to state your opinions.
No one has suggested that your membership or continued participation is in danger.

HOWEVER, let there be no confusion. Your ability to state your opinion doesn't mean you can state it and expect no one to state a counter opinion or expect that everyone will accept your opinion at face value.

So, dispense with the drama.

No one is attacking you.
No one is threatening you with a ban.
No one is telling you not to post or to keep your opinions to yourself.
You are not being targeted by a clique.

Making those claims is nonsensical and counter-productive. If you want to continue the discussion you are certainly welcome to do so, but let's take the histrionics down a notch or two, if you please.
 
Getting back close to the OP, here's a theory, and one you won't find any official facts to back it up, BUT it does fit the observed situation.

9x18? Why? Why not 9x19? (leaving aside they would have to design a different Makarov for the 9mm)

First, while the oft stated reason is the "couldn't use our ammo in their guns, their ammo in ours on the battlefield" would be true, I don't think it was the primary driving force behind the decision to use the 9x18.

The reality is that militaries, even the Soviet one, don't consider the handgun to be a serious weapon on the battlefield. Concerns about the enemy using your gun & their ammo, or vice versa are waaay down the priority list of reasons for choosing a particular cartridge.

PRIDE is much higher on that list. Remember who we are looking at, the SOVIET UNION (Russia). It was political (and likely personal) suicide to even suggest something not produced by the Soviet system was as good as, let alone better than what the Soviets produced.

The Soviets had a difficult time publically admitting that they received any help from anyone defeating Hitler in "The Great Patriotic War".

Remember the standing joke for generations about how a Russian would say (no matter what you were talking about) that it was "inwented in the Soviet Union / Russia". They actually taught that, and people who showed that they had doubts went to re-education camps (gulag), or just went into a shallow grave.

Anyone who was working in the Soviet system and seriously proposed adopting something made in the decadent west wouldn't be working in the Soviet system for very long.

(yes, they stole and copied western designs for a LOT of things, but that was different, as those designs were "inwented in Soviet Union" and no one dared to say different. People knew, but knew they couldn't say...)

SO, my theory is that it was POLITICS over any practical real world situation that resulted in the 9x18.

And haven't we seen similar results in our own political/military system a time or two?
 
Russian pride is the Kalashnikov AK 47 and it is still very much in tact. The 9x18 is still a 9mm pistol so is the 9x17 a 9mm pistol. A 9x17 round can achieve a speed of 1,000 fps, which is only short of the 9x19 by 150fps, and it can shoot a bullet of 100 grains as opposed to 115 grains in the 9x19.

The Makarov 9x18 was a success at achieving it's design goals. It was a cheap and dirty Walther copy and it worked great. The only thing that really slowed it down was the fall of the Soviet Union due to economic strain. The 9x18 can still be found on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan to this day and is very popular in China as well.
 
Maybe because it was "borrowed" from the German 9MM Ultra.
Makarov pistol’s caliber and design was inspired by German 9mm round “Ultra”. There was some speculation at the time that Russians “found” inspiration for Makarov design in the desks of occupied Walter plant in Germany.
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The 9×18mm Ultra is a German pistol cartridge. It was originally developed in 1936 for use by the Luftwaffe, but was not adopted at that time
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http://makarov-pistols.com/Makarov_History.html
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×18mm_Ultra
 
The difference is bullet diameter. German=.355....Russian=.362. It was deliberately designed that way so it would not fit into a German pistol.
 
Evil Monkey:

"In shoulder fired SMG's and PCC's, you have a weapon that has too much mechanical recoil for it's caliber."

No, no you don't. Cartridges far more powerful than 9mm have been chambered in very successful submachine guns without issue. In a long-arm blowback design is far easier to accommodate because you can use stronger springs and heavier bolts to counteract the higher pressures.
 
Discussing the makarov further......

9mm makarov is a result of the Russians giving up any notion about the pistol being an effective fighting weapon.

The 7.62x39mm pretty much replaced the 7.62x25mm Tokarev and the SMG after WW2, but they still needed a simple pistol for officers, MP's, back-up, etc, and the 9mm makarov in a blowback system worked as needed. My own theory to needing a blowback system was because of the non-tapered steel casing they were inevitably going to use, but that's debatable.

The problem is, recent events in Russia related to terrorism has resulted in the 9mm makarov caliber and pistol being obsolete in dealing with body armor and such. These Russian police forces and counter terrorism units are inducing a resurgence of the SMG and armoring piercing pistol caliber ammunition. Naturally, a handgun may also be needed as well. The 9x18mm in its AP forms have not satisfied the Russians and has resulted in SMG's and pistols being made in the 9x21mm Gurza.
 
"The difference is bullet diameter. German=.355....Russian=.362. It was deliberately designed that way so it would not fit into a German pistol."

There's absolutely no evidence of that at all, only supposition.

By the time the 9mm Mak was adopted no Western European force was issuing .380s.

The theory that it wouldn't fit into a Western European pistol chambered in 9mm is also spotty, as the Western Europeans were fielding not only pistols in 9mm Luger, but also submachine guns, as well, meaning their supplies of proper ammunition would have been far more available.

The Soviets, on the other hand, only fielded 9mm Mak. pistols, never submachine guns, meaning that any available supply of 9mm Mak. ammo very likely would have also come with a pistol attached.

The dimensional changes to what became the 9mm Makarov cartridge from its likely origins as the Luftwaffe design project 9mm Ultra (the Soviets captured the Walther factory, where the Ultra was developed, then shelved), are likely solely due to Soviet manufacturing capabilities at that time.

Much has been made of the supposed "well they adopted this so that we couldn't fire it in our weapons" design paradigm, but normally only to those nations considered to be "enemies," such as the Soviets, Japanese, and even the Germans.

With a little poking and prodding and a little critical examination, these claims always collapse.
 
Simple physics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction! The point way what now?

We have all heard the knock down power of the .45 ACP round too. Fact is, if a pistol round could achieve knock down it would also knock down the shooter as well.
 
"My own theory to needing a blowback system was because of the non-tapered steel casing they were inevitably going to use, but that's debatable."

Actually, on that, I think you might be closer than you realize.

One of the original guns chambered for the 9mm Mak was the Stechken auto pistol, which could be used not only as a handgun, but with a detachable buttstock as a full-auto submachine gun.

It very likely did work better with a non-tapering case.

But, tapered steel case ammo works just fine in most blowback pistols, so that's not that big a deal. But once you start running them at full-auto speeds, other considerations need to be met.
 
In a long-arm blowback design is far easier to accommodate because you can use stronger springs and heavier bolts to counteract the higher pressures.
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Strong springs dont do anything to counteract pressure. A 25lb recoil spring is not going to retard the bolt from opening too early if the bolt is too light. The pressure being exerted on the bolt face is in the thousands of pounds. The only thing the recoil spring is doing, is catching the bolt and returning it into battery. The weight of the bolt is the key to blowback operation, not recoil spring weight.

Due to the heavy bolt reciprocating, it may give PCC's more mechanical recoil for it's caliber, compared to a 223 semi auto rifle for example. Worse is when the bolt has a very small amount of room to reciprocate and comes to a dead stop earlier in cycling. That will definitely increase mechanical recoil because the bolt is not being slowed down in a longer period of time.
 
Like you stated, it is your own theory! We all have our own theories about many things up to and including guns that have fascinated men for years after the Chinese invented gun powder.

Now for the subject at hand is " Why no 9x19 Makarov " there is no conclusive proof to any of the stated theories! The conclusion is that it will remain a mystery to be pondered and debated and even argued with little to no results.

After 117 replies and 2,052 views it is a safe assumption that beating a dead horse is just a waste of time.
 
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