Why no makarov in 9mm?
- Thread starter militant
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Walt Sherrill
New member
As noted, the Soviet Bloc militaries didn't use 9x19 in any of their weapons... and, many of the Maks now available were made during that period, or made using the same equipment soon after the fall of the Soviet Union. (The Czech CZ-75 was designed for sale to the West and was never used by the Communist Block militaries. The CZ is arguably the only gun from behind the "iron Curtain" during that era that was designed to use 9x19.).
Then too, as noted above, the Makarov is a blow-back design (as opposed to locked-breech), and upgrading it to shoot the 9x19 would take a redesign of some sort or leave you with a handgun that was probably very UNPLEASANT to shoot.
Sweet Shooter
New member
The PPK in 380 almost answers the call. I know 380 ain't no 9mm, but if you just want to get away from the Mak 9, then the 380 is close and probably more available. And the PPK is also a blowback design if that's what you like.
-SS-
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lee n. field
New member
it was tried, using a fluted chamber to delay extraction. Too much recoil.
Walt Sherrill
New member
There are BLOW-BACK designs, and there are BLOW-BACK designs. Some are complex (and expensive) and some aren't.
The H&K P7 (and later derivatives) was a service pistol, too. It is also no longer being made. You have to ask why. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that they're expensive to make and when there are problems, not everyone is competent to diagnose the cause I only know a little about the Steyr, but have been around, used, and shot H&K P7s. The Steyr REQUIRED a fast-burning powder, and I suspect that many users didn't know that. That it took "special" ammo may have been part of the reason it was discontinued. They were also a LOT LARGER than the Mak, and more metal helped with recoil... I suspect the Steyr was costly to build, too.
The beauty of the Makarov design is it's simplicity. Nearly all of the Communist Bloc weapons shared a basic design philosophy: simple and "strong as bull." Even their aircraft tended in that direction.
IIRC, neither the Steyr GB nor the H&K P7 were intended as military service pistols, they were entrants in a competition for a 9mm police pistol. For some reason, the specifications requested a fixed barrel, hence the odd-ball designs.
I have a GB, the American-made Rogak copy, and an H&K P7. I don't like any of them; the Rogak is junk, the GB far too big for a reasonable carry pistol, and the H&K an over-engineered clunker, albeit one with a cult following. Actually, the piston system of the P7 is not bad - it is that silly squeeze cocking that I detest because if the shooter relaxes for an instant, he then must fight the cocker to put the pistol back in operation. I can't imagine why NJ ever adopted it for their State Police, unless something else (who knows what?) tipped the scales.
In addition to those pistols, there was also the Walther PP Super (a scaled up PP), made for the other 9x18, the 9x18 Police. The idea was the same, as powerful a round as was reasonably possible for a blowback (fixed barrel) pistol. But recoil is heavy, as it is in the Makarov, and that idea also never got very far although some German state police adopted the Walther.
Jim
I have a GB, the American-made Rogak copy, and an H&K P7. I don't like any of them; the Rogak is junk, the GB far too big for a reasonable carry pistol, and the H&K an over-engineered clunker, albeit one with a cult following. Actually, the piston system of the P7 is not bad - it is that silly squeeze cocking that I detest because if the shooter relaxes for an instant, he then must fight the cocker to put the pistol back in operation. I can't imagine why NJ ever adopted it for their State Police, unless something else (who knows what?) tipped the scales.
In addition to those pistols, there was also the Walther PP Super (a scaled up PP), made for the other 9x18, the 9x18 Police. The idea was the same, as powerful a round as was reasonably possible for a blowback (fixed barrel) pistol. But recoil is heavy, as it is in the Makarov, and that idea also never got very far although some German state police adopted the Walther.
Jim
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militant, as has been mentioned the Makarov is an unlocked blowback pistol, and,as produced, it is physically too small. FWIW, I once had to clear a 9X19MM round out of the chamber of a Makarov. Someone, apparently believing that a 9MM is a 9MM, loaded up a Mak with 9MM Luger ammo. The fact that the round would not fully chamber and the slide would not close on the longer 9X19MM round saved him. It might seem simple task, but I had a heck of a time removing that partially chambered 9X19MM RN Ball round from the firearm......ymmv
Walt Sherrill
New member
185 said:
I wonder how he got it in the gun? I'm pretty sure it wasn't fed from the magazine -- as I don't think they'll fit in the mag.
When I first started shooting 9mm, years ago, I mistakenly (I didn't really know the difference) picked up some 9x18. Because the 9x18 has a larger diameter than 9x19, it wouldn't chamber either.
Walt Sherrill
New member
Perhaps it can, but in the H&K P7 the fluting had the opposite effect:
From Wiki addressing the P7:
The chamber has 18 flutes that aid in the extraction process by allowing combustion gases to flow between the fired case and the chamber walls, preventing the case from "sticking" to the chamber walls. The drawback of this system is that the breech "opens" slightly prematurely to allow the slide to initiate its rearward motion. The high temperature gases cycling through a tube located below the chamber area and above the trigger made the early versions of this pistol uncomfortable to shoot after the content of two magazines were fired due to heating.
It wasn't JUST the "early versions" that got to hot to handle; a P7 does get hot after you've rapidly fired a couple of mags. So hot that you might not want to do a clearance drill (or put un-gloved hands on the front of the gun) if you don't have to...
Here's a link to the Wiki article; it's an interesting article and a clever design. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_P7#cite_note-8 With the H&K P7, the fluting mechanism was a way to SIMPLIFY the extraction process and mechanics. I never cared for the grip, which has a built-in safety/unlocking mechanism -- they should have used the gas system, and kept the trigger/fire control system more conventional.
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First time I have heard of the powder requirement. My Gb has never had a failure. My only fault with it is it is the DIRTIEST pistol I have ever fired. The ports blow gas all over the place under the dust cover.
I haven't had mine apart aside from standard strip, which is very easy, but there are certainly cheaper pistols to mfg.
But it is for me the one pistol that fires the best for me. Whatever Steyr did with the GB, it was worth it.
Perhaps this belongs in a Ripley " Believe it or not " column, but a while back there was a boob tube of a individual firing a 9X19 in a Mak. Loaded single round, the slide would not close fully, but fired. I believe the purpose of the video was not how stupid the man was, but how strong the Mak was. The gun was in one piece and so was the mans hand, but, this is JMO , it goes to prove that dumb is dumb. 
BTW, The Russians are masters at taking western concepts and ideals and making them "Russian " The T-34 tank is one example, the 9X18 ( and the 7.62 X 25 ) is another, the Russians were aware of the German work on the 9MM Ultra cartridge in 1936, the Germans wanted the most power 9MM cartridge that would work in a " blow back " action ( they didn't adopt it at that time ), The Russians simply adopted the cartridge as their own. It really had noting to do with interchangeably of ammo by the enemy, it had more to do with the Russian concept that it was a "Russian " cartridge.
BTW, The Russians are masters at taking western concepts and ideals and making them "Russian " The T-34 tank is one example, the 9X18 ( and the 7.62 X 25 ) is another, the Russians were aware of the German work on the 9MM Ultra cartridge in 1936, the Germans wanted the most power 9MM cartridge that would work in a " blow back " action ( they didn't adopt it at that time ), The Russians simply adopted the cartridge as their own. It really had noting to do with interchangeably of ammo by the enemy, it had more to do with the Russian concept that it was a "Russian " cartridge.
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I looked up hk 7pm myself. It is interesting concept but I don't think it works very well. It is a locked action, fundamentally different from direct blow back. The fluted chamber has nothing to do with the delayed unlocking. It is just an aid for extraction. It shows one of the shortcomings of the design. Nobody wants to go through the trouble of fluting the chamber if they don't have to.
Anyway 9mm Luger is a high pressure round. Direct blow back is marginally adequate for pistols without marked clumsiness. It is quite acceptable in shouldered arms, such as smg.
-TL
Anyway 9mm Luger is a high pressure round. Direct blow back is marginally adequate for pistols without marked clumsiness. It is quite acceptable in shouldered arms, such as smg.
-TL