Why is it that when I see the video of the Santa Barbara mass murderer...

Tom Servo,

My point is that just because they think something has gone horribly wrong with our society, doesn't mean that we need to roll over and surrender the most basic ground.

Make whatever other points we need to make, sure -- but don't start by accepting erroneous, flawed, biased assumptions.

pax
 
My point is that just because they think something has gone horribly wrong with our society, doesn't mean that we need to roll over and surrender the most basic ground.
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I'm not suggesting that, but we do sometimes have to meet them on a battleground of their choosing. They're insisting this is about the instrument, while ignoring the cause. These shootings serve that purpose well. We need to change that.

This is a good chance for us as a country to push for better means of diagnosing and treating mental illness than just stuffing little Timmy full of pills because he's shy. Right now, we appear to be making ticking time bombs out of some of these kids, and we need to examine why that is.
 
we do sometimes have to meet them on a battleground of their choosing.
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In general tactical terms ( and I'd bet on those!) THAT is a recipe for a defeat.

Ours is a righteous cause, supported by fact and buttressed by logic.... our failure is in Marketing .....


They're insisting this is about the instrument, while ignoring the cause. These shootings serve that purpose well. We need to change that.
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Even you agree .... though I differ on the "cause" .....
 
Bart - the gun control advocates have a menu of what seems reasonable to them as a starting point to lead to the elimination of firearms ownership except for some limited sporting use. The rich can shoot skeet and the rural unwashed can shoot at Bambi.

Pax makes a good point. 6 people were killed, three with knives. In San Antonio the other day, 4 people were shot and killed in the poorer neighborhood. One was a pregnant woman (girl really). No national impact as compared to what are seen as high value upscale people with a 'higher' social class killer with a manifesto.

As far as prevention - I will speak to that later from a psych viewpoint after I do errands.

PS - over here - http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547198&page=3
 
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Wow, Tom you make some great points. Pills have replaced time outside just being a kid for too many kids today. And they are doled out as solutions to problems that require hands on attention as a means of replacing that attention in far too many cases.

I've seen far too many posts on other sites quoting his "manifesto", I'll never read it. Having us read it strikes me as part of his goal. Screw that.
 
Part of this is the failed belief that we can somehow control the world around us. If we simply ban certain products or pass enough laws we’ll be OK. A lot of folks simply do not want to accept how little control we really have over things around us. Regardless of your belief system you need to realize that evil exist and we’ll never be rid of it.
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Barrylee, that's it. bad things do happen to good people, we can not distance ourselves from that.
 
I'm in full agreement with Mr. Servo but I feel it goes far deeper than that.
When I was a kid TV commercials consisted of auto ads, cereal ads, toy ads, cosmetic ads and even cigarette ads. Turn on the tube today and all you see are pharmaceutical companies peddling pills for every conceivable human condition, just as I'm typing this there is an ad on for a law firm offering assistance for the poor souls who are now suffering from the side effects of one of these drugs.
My point here is that over the past thirty years we have become a drug culture. My fear here is that the some of these chemicals may have altered the genetics of the people taking them and what we are experiencing is the effect this has had on the offspring of these people. This is not to say that everyone taking a given prescription will have the same adverse effect because everyone reacts differently to drugs and then there is the amount of time they were on them.
You will never here a politician or the news media mention this possibility because pharmaceutical companies have too much power, money and political pull and unlike firearms politicians can't outlaw medicine.
 
Today, the media is falling all over itself telling the story of how the family tried to intervene and failed. The father is falling all over himself blaming the NRA.
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I have not heard that the father of the killer had made a public statement. The father of one of the victims however has made a number of statements calling for "gun control" and "Not one more", etc.

If the father of the killer has made a statement does anyone have a link?

tipoc
 
In an earlier post a few things were factually incorrect and it might be helpful to correct that.

Yep. Let's go down the list.

California bans weapons like the AR-15, so the shooter used pistols.
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AR-15 based firearms are available for sale in Ca. and are quite popular. They cannot have pistol grips, are limited to 10 round mags, and a tool is required to press a button to drop the mag. The S&W M&P, Sig, Wyndam, Colt and others are availble. Why he chose handguns I don't know but leverguns, ARs, shotguns and more are available.

California only allows the purchase of one handgun a month, so the shooter spaced out his purchases.
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Only 1 new handgun a month. PPT sales are allowed and not counted as the "one gun".

California requires buyers to present a Handgun Safety Certificate, which the shooter presumably acquired.

California bans private-party transfers and requires "universal background checks," which did not deter the shooter.
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Private Party transfers are allowed but must go through an FFL.

There is a BHSC card. The test costs money and the card lasts for 5 years.
There is a background check and a 10 day waiting period.

The killer had a legal right to own a gun so none of these things blocked his way. He had no criminal record. He had no history of violence. No judge had ruled that he was a danger to others.

tipoc
 
Martinez' father is the one who's been so vocal. Is it me, or do his speeches seem uncommonly rehearsed or coached?

Tipoc, thanks for the clarifications on California law.
 
One has the greatest sympathy for loss and folks deal with it differently. However, there is something a touch off in his response. NO - I don't think it was preplanned or great conspiracy but it seems he is rolling with his 15 minutes of fame.

I might be wrong but it does seem that way.
 
Martinez' father is the one who's been so vocal. Is it me, or do his speeches seem uncommonly rehearsed or coached?
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I read somewhere that Mr. Martinez is a criminal defense attorney, maybe he is having a guilty conscience over defending criminals that may have later gone on to commit murder?
Being an attorney he's sure to be a fine public speaker.
 
Yes he is a lawyer.

Here is an interview with him from the NY Daily News.

He plans to meet with the family of the killer. He is not interested in meeting with Obama. He blames himself in part for his sons death because he did not do anything to support the Sandy Hook parents and families. He blames both parties for not instituting more gun control laws.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...t-plans-meet-killer-parents-article-1.1812100

Like a lot of folks he knows what he's against, mass killings. Not so clear on what he's for...

tipoc
 
Like several people pointed out....when I first heard of this tragic event It seemed strange they would only call him a shooter. As I understand he Stabbed 3, rann over 1 and shot 3. This psycho used every weapon at his disposal. One of the victims dads is using this as a anti-NRA platform and that in itself is just wrong! California is one of the tightest gun control states are around and they still seem to think they need even more gun control laws.

Frankly, if just one of the students had been armed and trained this tragedy might have had less victims.
 
It is obvious that the gun control laws in CA are seen as inadequate at they allowed killers to get access to guns. Thus, tougher laws that eliminate guns from the populace will be needed.

Since the NRA, among other groups, would oppose and did oppose such - they are to blame in part. I disagree but that is probably the father's logic.

Why call him a shooter - that's because at first the incident was primarily a shooting. The car was transportation for the shooting. The stabbing was discovered later. First impressions.

Just a hint - carrying on about the stabbings as a reason not to have gun laws isn't going fly as an argument. It is a choir argument. Unfortunately, many in the choir can't really see this point in arguing for the RKBA. If someone says we should ban guns as they kill people, saying we shouldn't ban them because knives kill people also - so we should have guns - makes not to much sense to them. It won't fly as an argument.

You need proactive reasons for gun ownership for self-defense and defense against tyranny. Knives kill, it's for sport - blah, blah. Not going to work to support the RKBA.
 
However, there is something a touch off in his response. NO - I don't think it was preplanned or great conspiracy but it seems he is rolling with his 15 minutes of fame.
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Glen are you suggesting that Mr. Martinez is enjoying the effect caused by the murder of his child?

I don't see it and most other people seem to believe he is speaking from the heart.
 
I don't see it and most other people seem to believe he is speaking from the heart.
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I don't doubt his grief for a moment. What concerns me is that he's using buzzwords and rhetoric from the Bloomberg/Watts playbook.

After Aurora and Sandy Hook, the gun control groups recruited the families of those rampages with alarming speed. The were prepped and shoved in front of camera as soon as physically possible. I'm very suspicious that is also happening with Mr. Martinez.
 
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