Part of this is the failed belief that we can somehow control the world around us. If we simply ban certain products or pass enough laws we’ll be OK. A lot of folks simply do not want to accept how little control we really have over things around us. Regardless of your belief system you need to realize that evil exist and we’ll never be rid of it.
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Why is it that when I see the video of the Santa Barbara mass murderer...
- Thread starter ezmiraldo
- Start date
Part of this is the failed belief that we can somehow control the world around us. If we simply ban certain products or pass enough laws we’ll be OK. A lot of folks simply do not want to accept how little control we really have over things around us. Regardless of your belief system you need to realize that evil exist and we’ll never be rid of it.
this is not a gun issue,its a deranged person issue...he went out on purpose to kill and get attention..now he is where he belongs,under 6 feet of dirt...
I will note that he is also, for a short time, where he wanted to be: on TV ...... he wanted attention, and got it.
Sadly, he saw no distinction between "Famous" and "Infamous" .....
The irony is that he seems to have been fully in compliance with California's "one handgun a month" law. From his manifesto:
The second pistol was purchased the following spring, and the third a year later.
My point? This wasn't done on impulse. He had been planning this on a rather long timescale.
Bringing back the Manchin-Toomey bill wouldn't have stopped this.
I had already done some research on handguns, and I decided to purchase the Glock 34 semiautomatic pistol, an efficient and highly accurate weapon. I signed all of the papers and was told that my pickup day was in mid-December. That fell in nicely, because that was when I was planning on staying in Santa Barbara till.
The second pistol was purchased the following spring, and the third a year later.
My point? This wasn't done on impulse. He had been planning this on a rather long timescale.
Bringing back the Manchin-Toomey bill wouldn't have stopped this.
Will Beararms
New member
We are a product of our environment. Some are raised to hunt and fish. Others are raised this is evil. Some are raised to defend themselves. Others are raised to use self-deprecating humor to redirect the bully's attention.
I grew up in a family where there were people who came over here as a result the holocaust. I walked into a store at the age of 12 while an armed robbery was occurring. I was raised to defend myself.
As a result, I choose not to be a victim. I do not dislike those who dislike guns. I don't make it my mission to convert them. I am a responsible citizen who owns firearms for legitimate reasons. I know what works for me. I don't worry about why evil happens and i do not try to reason with it. If I can be of service to someone with no experience with firearms that is interested in becoming a gun owner, I will volunteer my time and resources and I take it very seriously.
Throughout history, there have been those who put their fate and the fate of their family in the hands of politicians and there always will be. Oh....that yellow star on the front and back of my coat is no big deal. Oh.....what do I need to bother with owning a gun for there are trained professionals for this and so forth and so on.
We are a product of our environment. Be that person who others not currently in the gun culture respect as a level-headed, thoughtful individual. Don't be the lunatic open carrying an AR 15 variant at Chipotle. The liberal media will have their heyday with this travesty. When the dust settles, some non-gun owners will be asking themselves if it's time to take their own safety or the safety of their family into their own hands. Be there for them.
I grew up in a family where there were people who came over here as a result the holocaust. I walked into a store at the age of 12 while an armed robbery was occurring. I was raised to defend myself.
As a result, I choose not to be a victim. I do not dislike those who dislike guns. I don't make it my mission to convert them. I am a responsible citizen who owns firearms for legitimate reasons. I know what works for me. I don't worry about why evil happens and i do not try to reason with it. If I can be of service to someone with no experience with firearms that is interested in becoming a gun owner, I will volunteer my time and resources and I take it very seriously.
Throughout history, there have been those who put their fate and the fate of their family in the hands of politicians and there always will be. Oh....that yellow star on the front and back of my coat is no big deal. Oh.....what do I need to bother with owning a gun for there are trained professionals for this and so forth and so on.
We are a product of our environment. Be that person who others not currently in the gun culture respect as a level-headed, thoughtful individual. Don't be the lunatic open carrying an AR 15 variant at Chipotle. The liberal media will have their heyday with this travesty. When the dust settles, some non-gun owners will be asking themselves if it's time to take their own safety or the safety of their family into their own hands. Be there for them.
I just heard a rehash of this story. The reporter said the guy "slashed his three roommates to death BEFORE he unleashed his brand of terror" on the neighborhood. Apparently slashing three people to death is not that big a deal. I would think that would be part of "his brand of terror". This was on Fox News. I understand it is only my interpretation of the report, but it just seemed that they were down playing the three murders committed by knife to play up the murders by gun.
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It was notable to me, as it was to other contributors, that half of the fatalities were by stabbing rather than gunfire, and that a car was used as a weapon as well. I also saw one report that he had over 40 magazines, all holding 10 rounds each, demonstrating the ineffectiveness of magazine size limits. Overall, he complied with all the laws in one of the most restrictive states and still found ways to create mayhem and take innocent lives.
Given that there were also reports that the young man had been under psychiatric care for some time, that his parents were deeply concerned, and that law enforcement officers had been called on to deal with him, it seems apparent that warning signs were present and recognized. I would appreciate reading Dr. Meyers' thoughts about how the mental health care system can be changed to more effectively intervene in such situations. I know it is only a fraction of the answer, but it seems to me that background checks for mental illness using a database that contains very little such data is ineffective. Are there barriers against mental health professionals submitting such data? By what standards are someone denied the purchase of a firearm? By what standards are they confined for treatment? Understanding that human behavior is not completely predictable, are there reasonable modifications to the standards that could reduce the risk of such events? I only ask because in this instance it seems that the legitimate concerns of some people were expressed but not acted on effectively.
Given that there were also reports that the young man had been under psychiatric care for some time, that his parents were deeply concerned, and that law enforcement officers had been called on to deal with him, it seems apparent that warning signs were present and recognized. I would appreciate reading Dr. Meyers' thoughts about how the mental health care system can be changed to more effectively intervene in such situations. I know it is only a fraction of the answer, but it seems to me that background checks for mental illness using a database that contains very little such data is ineffective. Are there barriers against mental health professionals submitting such data? By what standards are someone denied the purchase of a firearm? By what standards are they confined for treatment? Understanding that human behavior is not completely predictable, are there reasonable modifications to the standards that could reduce the risk of such events? I only ask because in this instance it seems that the legitimate concerns of some people were expressed but not acted on effectively.
kilimanjaro
New member
Today, the media is falling all over itself telling the story of how the family tried to intervene and failed. The father is falling all over himself blaming the NRA.
I have some questions for the father :
1.) Did you know or should you have known your nutcase son owned firearms?
2.) Why did you not warn his roommates of your concerns about violence?
3.) Did you provide rent money to get your kid out of your house?
4.) Did you attempt to remove his firearms? If not, why not?
5.) Did you follow up with police after their first visit failed to reveal the illness that prompted you to call in the first place?
6.) Did you ever develop the sense of urgency and concern for public safety you now assert, before 7 people were killed by your nuthatch kid?
7.) Do you accept any responsibility for your son's actions, or are the NRA and the police entirely at fault here?
I have some questions for the father :
1.) Did you know or should you have known your nutcase son owned firearms?
2.) Why did you not warn his roommates of your concerns about violence?
3.) Did you provide rent money to get your kid out of your house?
4.) Did you attempt to remove his firearms? If not, why not?
5.) Did you follow up with police after their first visit failed to reveal the illness that prompted you to call in the first place?
6.) Did you ever develop the sense of urgency and concern for public safety you now assert, before 7 people were killed by your nuthatch kid?
7.) Do you accept any responsibility for your son's actions, or are the NRA and the police entirely at fault here?
Will Beararms
New member
Just heard the director of Homeland Security on a clip from a Sunday news show saying we needed to modify our laws. Do tell Mr. Director. What should we do and what authority do you have to weigh in on the matter in the first place?
Like the OP, I was thinking when I heard about this tragedy----what can I do to be better prepared?
Like the OP, I was thinking when I heard about this tragedy----what can I do to be better prepared?
Here's the thing. He was 22 years old. He is no longer a child. In the eyes of the law, at least, he's an adult. There are limits to what his parents could have done.1.) Did you know or should you have known your nutcase son owned firearms?
They'd need some legal authority to do so. For that, they'd need a court order. The authorities failed to find reason for such action.4.) Did you attempt to remove his firearms? If not, why not?
It may be tempting to blame the parents, but we don't know what lengths they went to. Will they blame the NRA? Possibly, if the antis whisper in their ears enough. But that doesn't mean they didn't try to do something, or that they were able to forsee something like this.7.) Do you accept any responsibility for your son's actions, or are the NRA and the police entirely at fault here?
You are probably, right, Tom. But, people in today's society like to blame everything/everyone except themselves (especially, when they can score couple of political points along the way). Taking personal responsibility is not in vogue any longer, regardless of the context.
Will Beararms
New member
The NRA is already being blamed. It's interesting how Cali already has very stringent gun laws. My heart goes out to the victim's families. I can't stop thinking about the roommates. Imagine the terror.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
According to an article I saw in my daily bird cage liner but haven't found anywhere on-line, although the parents contacted police because of threatening videos, the officers who conducted the interview with the kid had NOT looked at the videos, either before they interviewed him or after.
There was a serious breakdown in communication somewhere in the early warning system. This was an incident that apparently could (maybe, possibly, or perhaps not) have been prevented if the police had taken the simple step of checking out the threat before talking to the subject.
If he had posted a video threatening to kill the President, does anyone think the Secret Service would have sent over a couple of agents who had NOT seen the video to talk to him?
There was a serious breakdown in communication somewhere in the early warning system. This was an incident that apparently could (maybe, possibly, or perhaps not) have been prevented if the police had taken the simple step of checking out the threat before talking to the subject.
If he had posted a video threatening to kill the President, does anyone think the Secret Service would have sent over a couple of agents who had NOT seen the video to talk to him?
Will Beararms
New member
I get what you are saying but I can't blame the Police for this. They are darned if they do and darned if they don't.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
California already has pretty much every gun law that gun control advocates want nationally and not only did these laws once again fail to prevent the problem; but the NRA is somehow to blame?
Yep. Let's go down the list.California already has pretty much every gun law that gun control advocates want nationally and not only did these laws once again fail to prevent the problem; but the NRA is somehow to blame?
California bans weapons like the AR-15, so the shooter used pistols.
California only allows the purchase of one handgun a month, so the shooter spaced out his purchases.
California bans the sale of magazines over 10 rounds, so the shooter stocked up on 10-rounders.
California requires buyers to present a Handgun Safety Certificate, which the shooter presumably acquired.
California bans private-party transfers and requires "universal background checks," which did not deter the shooter.
The Santa Barbara sheriff doesn't make getting a concealed carry permit easy, but this did not deter the shooter, either.
So, obviously, we need more laws. This is where the slippery slope argument comes in.
Some folks believed that if we acquiesced to the Manchin-Toomey bill and Feinstein's renewed Assault Weapons Ban last year, they'd leave us alone. Sorry, but no. We'd have had another shooting, and they'd ask for more laws. When those laws failed to stop yet another shooting, they'd ask for even more. The cycle would continue until nothing was left.
And what then? We'd still have the fatalities, and the whole time, we'd have ignored the central question: what has gone wrong with society over the last 20 years that's making this happen?
Will Beararms
New member
Wow....well stated.
... what has gone wrong with society over the last 20 years that's making this happen?
Nothing.
Not. A. Freaking. Thing.
1) Mass murders have always happened, from the very earliest days in America. The worst of these, the ones with the highest body counts, never have used guns. No matter what the media tells us. (And if you start by defining the problem down to "mass murders that use a gun" rather than looking at mass murders, you're going to come up with some badly skewed ideas ... just as do the activists and politicians who talk about "gun violence" rather than violence.)
2) Violent crime -- including all types of murder, including multi-victim murder -- is down. The crime rates have been falling for over 40 years now. (See the video at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c82_1357146088 for more on that.)
3) Diagnosis and treatment of mentally disturbed people may not be improving, but you'd have a hard time making the case that Bedlam was better. Or even that Ronald Reagan's huge flock of newly minted street people caused less havoc than the nutcases who slip the system now (and before you claim otherwise -- look at those stats, again).
And
4) Yeah, we can do better. But we can do worse, too. One of the ways we absolutely will do worse is if we start out by conceding that nothing we've done so far has worked to reduce violence.
Here's one thing that has happened concurrently with the amazing drop in violent crime in America:
http://gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php
It's easy to get sucked into the assumptions and biases of the media we all consume and the social hangouts we frequent online. But ... well,
look at the stats. Don't base your reaction on anyone else's agenda-driven assumptions (including mine).
pax
All true, but that's the hand we're dealt in this debate.And if you start by defining the problem down to "mass murders that use a gun" rather than looking at mass murders, you're going to come up with some badly skewed ideas
The type and frequency of these shootings are what concern me. Tucson, Aurora, and Sandy Hook all happened right on top of each other, and they weren't sparked spontaneous rage. They were well planned. With the possible exception of Sandy Hook, the shooters shared a similar mindset.
The overall murder rate is the lowest it's been in nearly forty years, and these kids are outliers. We all know that. But the media fawns over them, and the politicians follow.