Why Glaser/Magsafe rounds present problems for self-defense use (Graphic Content)

When and if I argue in a thread, like this one, it will be because of two things.

First, the person who makes a statement that is incorrect is possibly endangering himself. The person who swears that a .22 lr pistol is the ultimate defense pistol because of size, sound, expense, so forth, is endangering his own life. That's all there is too it. He is taking an enormous chance of being killed by an armed opponent because he is choosing an inferior and unproven weapon system.

I don't want him to die. I will suggest that he change his mind, try to explain, and remind him that as a "good guy," I don't want to see him possibly throw away his own life.

The other reason to argue against bad ideas is to keep them from spreading.

People could argue that changing from the 1911 to the 9mm was a stupid idea. I'm not going to debate that. But, thousands of people argued valid points, that the .45 was better, and that going to a fmj 9mm was a step down in power.

This is the same argument that people would raise if millions of people dropped their nines for a .380, or even a .32.

We, as experienced and capable shooters have a moral responsibility to keep others from making ill advised decisions that will affect the outcome of combat situations negatively, possibly resulting in the death of a good guy.

So, I have a moral obligation to suggest:

no bird shot.
no glasers.
no 32 acps.
no slingshots.
No fmj
No cap and ball revolvers.
no H and H express rifles.
No bb guns.
and so on.

combat is a broad and complicated subject, but there are many proven principles, and for every proven principle, there are a thousand pounds of poop. Every passing minute brings more poop on the scene, such as a guy deciding that aiming at the bad guy's feet will confuse him so badly that he'll quit shooting.



So, because I want you guys to survive, I will say that the glaser has a lot of potential problems, and I will say that it would be better to carry proven defense rounds such as hornady extreme. I'm not going to lay out the thirty years of accummulated wisdom behind that decision, it is incumbent on the listener to either trust or distrust me, and to listen to other voices who also point out things like NOT A SINGLE LE AGENCY ISSUES THOSE THINGS.


It is incumbent upon everyone to criticallyh and carefully examine every bit of nonsense heard, , before believing it, just like penis pills.
 
You seem to be implying that because #6 or #12 shot out of a 12ga shotgun at close range is iffy, that it might not be a great choice to use much less shot and fire it out of a pistol bore?
You infer correctly, sir!
 
Ok, I have 35 years in Law Enforcement. I have no first hand experience with cases where a Bad Guy was shot and then the bullet continued on to hit a 'innocent bystander'. I'm sure it happens but I firmly believe that it's so rare that I no longer worry about it or equip for it. It's probably better to use your money for more practice so as to avoid misses. I do know of times when misses have caused problems.
 
I agree, and have said the same thing many times.

Blow through is a nonissue, imo. maybe the chances of hitting a bad guy in the body and having the bullet blast right through him are 1-100, the chances of going through and killing someone are 1-1,000.

How many missed shots go flying downwind in a gunfight, compared to all those that connect? In a gunfight here, IIRC, only one out of 20 got the bad guy.

So, if we do grant that glasers are just as deadly as a chunk of plutonium, it seems even nuttier to consider firing 19 misses into the crowd of innocent bystanders behind the bad guy, just to keep one out of twenty shots from going through the BG and maybe hurting someone else.

Worry about hitting the target rather than a bystander, instead of worrying about the very minimal chance that a bullet will pass through and injure someone else.
 
Hype sells. Just look at television commercials. Quibids? Snuggies? The Miracle Meatloaf pan thing? The list goes on. I'll pass on the Glasers...
 
"Ok, I have 35 years in Law Enforcement."

Good friend of mine has been Federal LEO in Washington, DC, and the surrounding areas for almost 27 years and he has never seen nor heard of such an incident, either.
 
Like all things, tools are best when they are employed to exploit their strong points and not their weak points... knowig the strengths of a tool and the weaknesses of a tool allows you to pick and choose.

Outside the house I carry either Keith SWC's (revolver) or Cor Bon HP's (automatics). But the bedside revolver is a bit different... two Glasers followed up by 4 Keith SWC's in a .38.

Why? Neighbors living 30 feet and two thin walls away.....

Note that this revolver does not leave the house.


The Glaser might not be the cats meow for shooting someone, but... I'll accept the defecit in order to reduce the liklihood of shooting my neighbors house thru my walls. It's a strategic decision. With 2 Glasers in a row followed up by a few SWC's, what's the downside? Shoot once, twice... damned high chance it'll be over by then. Miss? Neighbors kids not found dead in their cribs... and if two don't work then the SWC's are behind the Glasers.


Right tool for the job, actual mileage may vary. I'd think that apartment dwellers and those with neighbors close at hand might consider this.




Willie


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With 2 Glasers in a row followed up by a few SWC's, what's the downside?

The downside is that 2 Glasers may be less likely to stop an attack than a single SWC if you do not get an unobstructed lung shot. The other downside is that as noted in the first post, Glaser's don't always stop in drywall either.

if you are going to use Glasers keep in mind that the Blue version uses #12 shot. For comparison, a less-lethal beanbag round uses #9 shot in a sack because they are trying to avoid penetration. The Glaser Silver uses #6 shot, which even out of a 12ga only penetrates about 5" of bare jello; but it is a step up from #12 shot.

If your plan is to base your defense around weapons that won't penetrate two 5/8" sheets of drywall, a firearm is the wrong tool to be using.
 
I respectfully disagree... I'm *sure* the first two Glasers will distract anybody in the world shot in the face with them long enough for me to shoot them a third time with a SWC if they keep at it. I don't plan a lung shot... I plan to do exactly what Jeff Cooper taught me to do in my 250 course way back in the early 80's when we discussed shooting folks with other than a .45 Automatic. His advice was "aim for the eyes and shoot early and often". I'm just guessing that being shot in the face with a Glaser would fairly ruin almost anyones day. It would surely distract *me* were I so shot... :rolleyes:


Now: I'm equally sure that due to the layout and construction of my house, that *any* miss my from my bedroom will impact my neighbors house, on the side where they sleep. What's the downside to that? Uhh... rather a lot. I happen to like the 12 year old kid that would be right in the line of fire.

Thus my decision.

Opinion is what makes a horse race interesting. The bottom line is that there are no absolutes, and that every choice is a unique one (for better or worse).


"If your plan is to base your defense around weapons that won't penetrate two 5/8" sheets of drywall, a firearm is the wrong tool to be using.'


That's a pretty, uhh... "Absolute" point of view, with all due respect. Did you bother to read the loadout order of my cylinder? Have any recent experience with hard cast Keith SWC's? Have any idea how quickly I can slew the chamber two clicks to have them indexed up for the first 4 shots? Or pull the trigger three times?


Uhh... <sigh>..



Willie

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Willie Sutton said:
I respectfully disagree... I'm *sure* the first two Glasers will distract anybody in the world shot in the face with them long enough for me to shoot them a third time with a SWC if they keep at it.

If you have the skill and the training that you feel confident you are going to be shooting them twice in the face with the first two shots, then pretty much any round will do so long as it penetrates the skull. So about the only thing less likely to do that than Glaser Silver are: blanks, Simunitions, snakeshot, and Glaser Blue.

Now: I'm equally sure that due to the layout and construction of my house, that *any* miss my from my bedroom will impact my neighbors house, on the side where they sleep. What's the downside to that? Uhh... rather a lot.

Which is another puzzling aspect of your strategy. You feel that penetration is enough of a problem that you are williing to accept the limitations of Glasers, even though they don't always work at limiting penetration in light barriers; but then right behind the Glasers you have hard cast SWC loaded? Isn't that pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum from Glasers in terms of trying to limit penetration?

That's a pretty, uhh... "Absolute" point of view, with all due respect.

It is a pretty common sense point of view. Drywall isn't a substantial barrier. It is 5/8" of powdered gypsum backed by paper. If I told you I lived in a Japanese house with sliding rice paper doors and it was absolutely imperative that no rounds left the room I was in, would you recommend I use a firearm for defense? Yet people have this unrealistic expectation that drywall is going to stop bullets.

Did you bother to read the loadout order of my cylinder?

I said ""If your plan is to base your defense around weapons that won't penetrate two 5/8" sheets of drywall, a firearm is the wrong tool to be using."

Clearly, that isn't your plan since both of the rounds (Glaser and hard cast SWC) you have loaded in your firearm will zip right through two sheets of 5/8" drywall with little trouble. So I am not sure why you think how your cylinder is loaded is relevant.

The point is that drywall isn't a substantial barrier. It won't stop bullets. If it did, we'd use drywall plates in armor and save all that weight. People who think that switching to Glaser is going to change that have an unrealistic expectation of what to expect from drywall and if they really can't afford to put a round through drywall, they need to look at other methods of defense.
 
"but then right behind the Glasers you have hard cast SWC loaded? Isn't that pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum from Glasers in terms of trying to limit penetration?'


Absolutely. It's called "flexibility of choice". Hide behind that refrigerator, will ya? ;)


And, BTW: I didn't mention drywall.. you did. My house was built in 1923... no drywall anywhere 'round here. I've satisfied myself with a few shots against plywood that the Glasers will pretty much be a done thing after going thru the side of the house.


In any event, I can see that my Karma and your Dogma are like, well... a car and a dog... one is running and one is chasing... and why bother, it's just a noisy distraction. :p


Best,


Willie


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@bart how many walls is a glaser gonna go through?? it may go through 1 and then it will break up or significally slow down at least enough to not go through your neighbors house and into their kids room. your point would be valid if you only have a 1 shot pistol then yes i would agree with you that you probably shouldnt use a glaser. however my pistol (glock23) shoots more than 1 round. and if someone is in my room at 3am i dont plan on shooting 1 shot. and like what was said before it may or may not kill him with the 1st shot but how about 2 or 3 shots of glaser? or how about 2 or 3 shots will immobilize him and the 4th shot of hornady puts him out of his misery?

your strategy is flawed if you plan on using only 1 shot in a self defense situation with any round.
 
Willie, I don't know if you made the PERFECT decision, or if a PERFECT decision can be made.

I will, however, congratulate you for having used a pretty good decision making process, coming to rational conclusions, and making a decision that's got a lot of thought behind it. You have two rounds that should be safe, and should be capable of stopping an intruder. If those fail, you have heavier bullets for follow up shots. If you miss, you still have good follow up ammo. If you are shooting ammo towards your neighbor's house that may penetrate to there, you have tried to be safe with the first two rounds, and regardless of what you are firing, shooting a swc round isn't gonna kill those kids. If they get hurt, it is an unfortunate turn of events, and you tried to keep it from happening.

I respect that. It's too darned bad that not even half of the people running around this country actually think for themselves and are capable of making a smart decision on a regular basis.

If you have a specific corridor that you are worried about launching a bullet through, say down a hall, it certainly wouldn't hurt to reinforce a wall a bit in between yourself and your neighbor. If I was worried about a particular place, like the end of the hall, you could stack a couple of pieces of heavy plywood inside the garage or so forth.

Even if it doesn't stop a stray round, slowing it down will be a good thing.
 
Thanks...

I think the point I am trying to make is that every situation is different, and one size does not fit all. What I do might not work for the guy down the street, never mind in Texas.


Or.. as I would say in another "Willis-Ism"


"In general, I have decided that all generalizations, save for this one, are wrong" :o



For street carry, you need to take a generalists approach, and there I just carry hollow point defense ammunition, all the same, top to bottom of the magazine. But in my house... it's a specific situation, and I attempted to generate a solution that would work. Using similar logic, the shotgun has two rounds of #7 1/2 low brass shot with the balance being OO Buck. Same rationale. Shoot 'em with the soft stuff first and if they keep twitchin' or hide behind cover shoot em with the harder stuff.


The Glaser statistics are interesting and educational. I don't think I would carry them outide of the house in any event. But I sure as heck would not want to be shot in *my* face with it... remembering that chimpanzee ripping the womans face off gives me the creeps... figuring that a Glazer similarly applied would produce similar results... it would not a good day to be a bad guy after having a pair of them launched at the eyes.




Willie

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@bart how many walls is a glaser gonna go through??

In different online tests, Glasers have gone through 6 sheets of drywall closely spaced, through two interior walls at normal room distance and a turkey, and through two interior walls with insulation in another test. You get variation depending on what it takes to release the shot. If the shot doesn't release, it is the same as any other projectile of a similar weight.

Here are some more good resources showing how Glasers behave:

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?481-Glaser-Safety-Slugs-Shot-and-Thought
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23_4.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TioEMEKzLn0
 
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so the glaser that failed to open did exactly what either a FMJ or a clogged hollow point would have done, ehh?

Using a glaser and having it fail to break up will be no worse than hitting whatever you just hit with a more standard round.

Or, it may disintegrate and not do any serious damage.

Like I said, I've got no desire to use them, I don't find any real benefit to them, but under some circumstances, maybe they're an appropriate option that may work.

in my experience and research, a light fast bullet like the nine or forty will shed energy and stop after hitting a lot less material than would a heavy bullet in a 1911, .357; shothgun slug, heavy rifle, whatever.

My choice, YMMV, will be light bullets in 38 special, 9mm and .357. Best rounds for combat? nahh. Best for my nightstand gun? Yep.
 
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