Why Glaser/Magsafe rounds present problems for self-defense use (Graphic Content)

Glockstar .40 said:
sure you may or may not want glasers for HD but what if your in a building and a thug is attacking someone with a knife and your 25 feet away? if i miss with my first shot its comforting to know its not going into the next room or outside. imho
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The best way to limit overpenetration is to not miss. To that extent, it seems like stopping the fight with the fewest rounds fired is the safest solution for everyone.

Also, give the Brassfetcher link a read. As I noted in the original post, Glaser actually penetrated an interior wall just fine and then penetrated almost the FBI minimum of ballistics gel on the other side - so the chance it will go into the next room is probably higher than you think.

I certainly wouldn't advocate (and I bet the manufacturer of Glaser would not either) taking any shots with Glaser that you would not take with a JHP.

Also, in the original post, I used figures for the average human male. As someone recently pointed out to me, the average American male tends to be a bit bigger than the global average, with an average depth of around 10" and a width of 20" or so.
 
When the goal should be to (a) have a bullet that penetrates adequately to reach the body's vital organ systems and (b) expands to create as large of permanent cavity damage as possible while still allowing proper penetration, I see everything else as a liability. If you want to shoot BB's at a threat then do it with a shotgun, not a Glaser safety slug out of a handgun.
 
@Bart in a perfect world yes never missing a shot from 25 feet with your adrenalin pumping and your hands shaking knowing that to save someones life your about to take someone elses? sounds pretty easy to me! i'm sorry i dont mean to sound like a jerk cuz im not tryin to be. but alot of civilians think that just because you shoot at a paper target perfectly hitting with every shot dead center that they are gonna be able to do that in a real life situation. im sorry but under those circumstances its easier said then done.

if any of us ever get in that situation i pray that it would be a 1 shot stoppage. but ill take my chance doing every thing possible to protect peoples lives in the backround even if that means putting 3 rounds of glaser in my mag:) hopefully by my 4th shot where the critical defense is at ill be on target;)
 
Where I live, it's not uncommon to see men that would require a full 8-10 inches of penetration just to get past the last 30 years of beer and burgers. I wasn't always an advocate of deep penetration, but at some point in the past, I realized that

FAT DOESN'T BLEED.​
Thanks for the photo. I've wondered all of my life whether people are red or white meat. Not suprisingly at all, it looks more like pork.​
 
Glockstar .40 said:
@Bart in a perfect world yes never missing a shot from 25 feet with your adrenalin pumping and your hands shaking knowing that to save someones life your about
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I'm a bit confused here. On the one hand, you appear to realize it may be difficult to make good hits. On the other hand, your strategy appears to be planned around making multiple hits with less effective ammo in a dynamic life-threatening situation. I'm not trying to tell you what is best for your situation because I don't know; but that sounds like a contradiction you should give some thought to.

but ill take my chance doing every thing possible to protect peoples lives in the backround even if that means putting 3 rounds of glaser in my mag
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Assuming you are correct that Glaser reduces the threat to people in the background (and I don't know that I agree with that), then you'll do everything possible for the first 3 rounds and then tough luck for the people in the background? Again, I wouldn't use Glaser at all, so I am not being critical of your choice. I'm just pointing out the contradiction in reasoning again.
 
If you actually buy into the story that a glaser is a guaranteed death sentence to anyone hit with it, (I agree that those are brutal rounds that will leave a real bruise), there is nothing in the world safe about shooting them in a crowded area. Nobody can guarantee that he's going to hit object of his wrath. If a shot misses, it's totally in God's hands. Knowing my history, I am fully aware that if I fired a glaser bullet and missed, even if it had to travel over a mile, that bullet would eventually land in a nun's forehead.

It takes real ego to buy rounds based on the perceived safety factor that they will not exit the target and injure a bystander, while you also increase the very real danger that those rounds present to the same bystander if you miss your target.
 
NON LETHAL

We may not want to kill the --b just leave him w a weather indicator for the rest of his days and let the dr get some practice
 
@bart my strategy is to hit with the 1st shot everytime. all im sayin is that its easier said than done.

and with the world we live in where good people like us who actually might try to stop someone else whos getting attacked, can get sued and even thrown into prison for doing the RIGHT thing! it might look better to the jury if someone took the precautionary steps to buy some glasers even if they do take out a bystander. im not gonna argue whether or not they will kill with 1 shot or whether they will go through a wall of sheet rock. because just about anything that is fired from a gun going that fast can do either.

and although some glasers might go through a wall some haven't.....thats why their is a market for frangible ammo. because they can LESSEN (not always) the chance of penetration.
 
Glockstar, I'm just pointing out your reasoning isn't consistent. On the one hand, you are saying that bystanders are such an important issue, you are willing to accept serious limitations on effectiveness. However, you're also saying that if for whatever reasons (misses, ineffectiveness, etc.) you haven't solved that problem in 3 rounds, you are no longer concerned about bystanders enough to accept those limitations.

If bystanders are important enough for you to risk your own life, why does that stop at three rounds. Or alternatively, if you don't trust Glasers enough not to back them up with Hornady Critical Defense, why not just use Hornady
 
This subject is one of the ones that just won't die. I am continually astounded the folks keep arguing about it.
 
Nice to see it in print.

Way before the op started this thread,I read the stories of 380 Glasers that left wounds that looked like the guy was shot with a shotgun but then I also read alot of very concerned comments about terminal performance and the police never adopted this round as a defacto safety round so I was less then enthused about them.

And Glasers have the highest premium cost of any round you can buy so practicing with them for accuracy and reliability is hideously expensive.

I'll stay with my jhp's in +p thanks-WAY more cheaper,more accurate and consistent.
 
@bart na i trust em they are just too expensive to fill 2 13rd mags:) and also CD isnt gonna break apart when it hits someone (i.e the criminal) frangible would or at least it should if it does its job. so i guess my reasoning would be that i have the best of both worlds IF the bullets do their job;)

i'm just puttin my strategy down. it doesnt have to be anyone elses. if you dont like it, its ok you wont hurt my feelings:D.

(on a serious note) i dont think their would be a market on these rounds for so long if they normally dont do what their supposed to do. these are but a few instances of who knows how many. Given some time I could probablly find on the internet how Hornady CD didnt do its job either. but i think ill still choose to trust em:) imho
 
I too thought Glasers were the magic bullet 25 years ago. Now I want consistent penetration and tend to like heavy for caliber bullets. My exception to that is the 40, I like 155's for more velocity.

Glockstar, your logic is slightly flawed. Do the glasers hit at POI with your gun? Do they hit at the same POI as the ammo in your gun? My experience is that they do not have the same POI which is going to make a difference. Also your supposition that once drawn down you are gonna be shaking like a leaf is not accurate either. Everytime I have been drawn down on someone, I was dead steady, It save me from having to shoot a few people.
 
Do they hit at the same POI as the ammo in your gun?
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Mine didn't!

Years ago, a friend of mine gave me 4-5 boxes of Glaser 185grn(I think,been a long time). They hit high compared to 185grn JHP's and reg. ball ammo. Maybe just that particular pistol as I only shot them out of one.

Has that been the experience of others?
 
I believe the Glaser Safety Slugs use either six or 12 shot. I ran across a very informative thread showing extensive ballistic gelatin test results from shotguns with various size shot. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958.

The author recommend #4 buckshot as the small size shot from a shotgun due to those results. If anyone is seriously considering carrying a pre-fragmented round, you should look at these results. Then, it's your decision.
 
shortwave said:
Has that been the experience of others?
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Yes, when I was working myself through the same process that Glockstar .40 is just starting on, I carried and shot Glasers, though I only loaded the first two as Glasers. My experience is that Glaser's have a different POI from JHP or FMJ of the same weight and caliber. I've also noticed (last time I used them over a decade ago) that they tend to group more erratically than JHP or FMJ as well - probably something to do with the difficulty of consistent manufacture of the peculiar bullet they use.

Glockstar .40 said:
(on a serious note) i dont think their would be a market on these rounds for so long if they normally dont do what their supposed to do.
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OK, now I know you are either a young pup or relatively new to firearms. Having been into shooting for awhile now, I can assure you that there is no shortage of firearms products that don't do what they are supposed to do but sell well. Some of them are still getting sold today a mere 30 years after I discovered their primary use was to separate the gullible from their money.

i'm just puttin my strategy down. it doesnt have to be anyone elses. if you dont like it, its ok you wont hurt my feelings
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Like I said, I've been there. You can read posts where I make similar arguments with the same logical inconsistencies to people on this very forum about 10 years ago. I was wrong. I was just trying to nudge you in a direction you will probably figure out on your own eventually.

KyJim said:
The author recommend #4 buckshot as the small size shot from a shotgun due to those results.
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You seem to be implying that because #6 or #12 shot out of a 12ga shotgun at close range is iffy, that it might not be a great choice to use much less shot and fire it out of a pistol bore? ;)
 
I also have a bone to pick with advertising Mag Safe rounds: "MAGSAFE SWEPT THE STRASBOURG TESTS." http://magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html

Essentially this is a claim relating to a supposedly "secret" test of incapacitation times of various rounds on goats. Setting aside the issue of whether there really was a Strasbourg Goat Test, this advertisement misstates the results. According to a publicly released version, the conclusion stated:
t was concluded that the most effective ammunition available for an unobstructed lung strike is the high velocity type which uses pre-fragmented or fragmenting projectiles or those types that cause immediate expansion on impact.
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See http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html#nb4 for discussion and http://www.thegunzone.com/goats/strasbourg.pdf for test summary (emphasis added).

So, if you're going to use this ammo, make sure you have the assailant present a profile to you that gives you an unobstructed lung shot.
 
The whole fallacy of the Strasbourg tests.....

Even if it did occur, it is similar to shooting someone eating a big mac. Sorry, I have hunted enough and seen enough people shot I want something wayyyyy more than it takes to kill a grazing goat. The out of control people I have dealt with had very little in common with grazing goats.

Any of the glaser or magsafe bullets are not going to consistently penetrate enough to get the job done. I know that they cause a devastating wound, but we may not be able to surgically place the shot. Depending on the attacker and the situation, it may work to get them to break off an attack. In the end I believe it is just marketing. Why are they still for sale? PT Barnum said it best " There is a sucker born every minute".
 
young pup? hahaha na man and im not ancient either. i turn 31 next month.i dont claim to know everything about firearms bullets or ballistics but im not new to them either. maybe when i know as much as you i will change my mind....until then i'll keep a couple glasers in my mag;) im not tryin to sound like a die hard glaser fanatic (cuz im not). but for me its what i have right now and at 3$ a pop im not just gonna throw them out or shoot them into a paper target:)

and what do you mean theres not a shortage on firearm products that dont do what their supposed too? you mean thos zombie max rounds dont really kill zombies?? great i just bought me a box too:mad:
 
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