Why does the thought of carrying "cocked & locked" make me so nervous?

Gewehr98,

Thanks for the info! It does give me a lot more than the standard gunshop employees' 'they're GREAT!', as they arrange the sale. I do have another question, but it isn't Kahr specific. I have a S&W model 410 semiauto that also has a tight takedown pin. What I have been doing, and I used this technique in the gunshop to successfully remove the Kahr pin, is to remove the magazine and us a corner on the magazine to push the pin out of the frame. In your comment, and many others I have read on various boards, you mention a dowel or mallet. I haven't run into anyone suggesting what I just did.

Is this because it is so obviously wrong that I shouldn't do it? Keep two things in mind: both the magazine and pistol are unloaded and I am a newbie, who grew up on revolvers and never even shot a semiauto until last august. If this is not a safe technique, can you let me know? I don't want to damage anything. I thought of it because it helps to truely 'field strip' the pistol. After all, we usually don't carry a mallet, dowel, brass punch set, etc in our pockets if we are carrying in a holster and out 'in the field'.

One other question. How well does Parkerizing 'wear' in the holster? Again, I am primarily used to revolvers [blued and stainless only], so I have never owned a parkerized gun of any kind. I know I would like to get the pistol refinished, for both cosmetic and maintainence reasons. You are the second person to recommend parkerizing, but I really don't know much about that, other than it looks kind of fuzzy and blackish-grey. Is it more durable than a good blueing?

Thanks again for the info on the Kahr!

jason
 
I'm thinking the prior owner of my K9 did use the magazine, specifically the non-plastic portion of it, to pound out the takedown pin, because there are a ton of small impact marks on the side of the frame and slide near the takedown pin on the right side. Another reason I will bead blast and refinish the gun. I thought about using the base pad of my magazines to do that, but they don't look to be very high-impact plastic. It's no biggy, I'm not in the habit of field-stripping my K9 unless I'm cleaning it at home.

As for parkerizing, I don't know if it's any more durable than a good blueing job, all finishes wear to some degree or another. But ALL of my 1911's, as well as my race revolver, Wyoming elk rifle, 1000 yard match rifle, Remington 700PSS, No1MkIII* Lithgow Enfield, M1 Garand, M14NM, BM-59, and several custom knives are parkerized, either originally or by me, and I've really enjoyed the durability of the finish, as well as the dull, business-like appearance, good oil retention, and easy cleanup. That, and if I mess up a parkerized finish, it's not that hard to fix if need be. There are other finishes to consider, of course, GunKote and other "paints", NP3, hard chrome, electroless nickel, you name it. Use the search function of this forum and you'll see all sorts of discussions over proper gun finishes. I choose parkerizing because it works for me, plain and simple.
 
"Carry a 1911 C&L equals carrying an 870/1100 10/22..."

Sorry, guys, but that's NOT the case, and it's not a good comparison.

The talk here is carrying a 1911 C&L concealed in holster.

The last time I carried a shotgun C&L was hunting.

Different purposes, different conditions, different situations.
 
I just thought of a 'cocked and locked' question. Will leaving the pistol cocked and locked cause the mainspring to wear out faster? It seems that it would, as it is constantly under strain, but I am not sure: I don't own a 1911 yet.

Also, is there any reason I should NOT buy a 2001 Springfield Armory loaded pistol? I've heard all of the Kimber rant, but I want all steel and the Springfield is a bit cheaper in all steel. Also, the brand new Colts that are now for sale, are they as well made from the factory as either the Springfield or Kimber? I want the best value out of the box for a 90% range/target pistol. Thanks

jason
 
Threapydude, I carry a Browning H-Power cocked & locked and it doesn't even have the benefit of the 1911s grip safety. Like you I was uncomfortable with the idea of carrying the gun cocked and locked at first. I even bought several other guns trying to reach a happy medium since I was carrying the gun condition three.

I finally got over my hang-ups and began experimenting with condition one carry and have never looked back. I recommend you try what several others here have recommended, carry the gun around the house empty but cocked and locked. I think you will soon find you are comfortable with that mode of carry.
 
No it will not harm the mainspring in the 1911 if you leave it cocked and locked. I have carried a C/L 1911 for a couple of decades or so and mine still works just fine. If the thought that it might weaken the spring bothers you, replace it for a buck or so every decade or two.

People have been carrying 1911s cocked and locked for nigh onto a centry now and its still a great system. You can get your gun into action immediately and safely. I have had many people come up to me through the years and tell me, Officer the hammer to your gun is back. I have always found that humorous and I would take the time to give them a brief history on the 1911, and its safety features and thanked them for their interest.

7th
 
Cocked and Locked

To me cocked and locked is an UN-NATURAL state. When you have to rely on strictly mechanical "safties", you are stretching your safety a bit far.

Handguns manufactured with a decocker give you a better degree of safety. Also, Glocks are designed to "set there" with a round in the chamber, until dooms day. I trust the security of a decocker or a Glock type sustem.
 
Madison,

just a thought, but do you know why a glock or decocker type system is 'safer'? I am definitely not an expert, but from what I have read the only reason they don't fire if dropped is because of the purely 'mechanical' safeties built inside the pistol, such as the 'mechanical' firing pin blocks. If that block breaks, the Sig or Ruger I have will fire if dropped, with the hammer down. All safeties are mechanical if they are on the gun, by definition.

I think you meant that you didn't trust a pistol that relied upon human activated external mechanical safeties. Heck, the Glock and Sig both have at least three internal mechanical safeties that we actively bypass when we pull the trigger, and then reset themselves. I am only concerned about 'cocked and locked' because the odds of firing [if the safeties, all three of them] fail seem to be higher with that hammer back than if it were a sig, with the hammer down, and all three safeties failed. Plus it is a visual thing.

fwiw

jason
 
If you carry concealed, who's going to know the hammer is back? As for Glocks being safer, not really once you understand how Glocks really work. As for Sigs, and other DAs being safer, granted. However, you give up a lot of first hit potential with the heavier trigger pull. It's a tradeoff. My weapon's job is to give me accurate, effective hits from the first shot to the last. My job is to maintain it in a safe condition until such time as it is called upon to peform it's task. For me, a SA weapon does this best.
 
Buzz: I'm not sure that I can agree that DA/SA is safer than SA. I think they each have their advantages and disadvantages.

Let's think about how the different actions can affect safety.

SA

When you draw a condition 1 SA, the gun won't fire until you lower the manual safety. The manual safety is typically lowered as the barrel passes through a 45 degree angle with the ground. If you mistakenly get your finger on the trigger before the safety is lowered, then the gun won't go off. Once the gun is drawn and the safety is lowered, you have a short, light trigger pull. So if you have your finger on the trigger and are startled, then you can easily have an AD.

During reholstering of a condition 1 SA, you must reapply the safety. If you forget to do so AND forget to remove your finger from the trigger, you will likely have an AD. If you reapply the safety and forget to remove your finger from the trigger, then nothing happens (except you pinch your trigger finger).

DA/SA without manual safety (e.g., Sig)

When you draw in condition 1, the gun will fire if you pull the trigger. However, you do have a long, relatively heavy trigger pull for the first shot. If you are startled and you have your finger on the trigger, that long, heavy trigger pull MIGHT prevent an AD. Advantage DA/SA.

After your first shot, you have a short, light trigger pull, just like a M1911. No difference here.

You must decock before reholstering. If you forget to do decock and forget to remove your finger from the trigger, then you will likey have an AD. No difference here. Even if you do decock and forget to remove your finger from the trigger, you may well have an AD. Advantage SA.

An example of an AD while reholstering a DA/SA can be found here:

http://www.frontsight.com/safety.htm

So I really don't see a huge safety advantage either way between SA or DA/SA. Either can be handled safely. And either can be mishandled. Each has a manual of arms that must be learned.

M1911
 
M1911, I was assuming we were starting from Condition 1/2 and relying solely upon trigger pull. Also, the implied assumption was the shooter was someone experienced or wise enough to know that the SA is the most efficient fight stopper ever created. That was a joke, folks! Put the flamethrowers down!
 
Unfamiliarity with the way the 1911 is the usual cause for nervousness with condition 1. Once you learn it and understand how the safeties interact I think you'll feel fine with this method.

Madison:

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Glock doesn't just sit there until needed. The striker is in a cocked state, requiring only a trigger pull to release it. Unlike a DA revolver, it doesn't rest in an inert state requiring mechanical activation to shoot.

Mike Irwin:

Thumb cocking a 1911? The only reason to do that would be if you kept your 1911 with the hammer down on a live round in the chamber. ABSOLUTELY NOT RECOMMENDED. I know some who claim this is not that bad. I won't even go into that issue.
 
I would tend to think carrying a Glock with a round in the chamber as being "more unsafe", than carrying a 1911 C&L. That being said I fear not carrying a glock, or a 1911 C&L. If you use your head it will be as safe as carrying an apple.
 
Mute sez:

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Glock doesn't just sit there until needed. The striker is in a cocked state, requiring only a trigger pull to release it. Unlike a DA revolver, it doesn't rest in an inert state requiring mechanical activation to shoot.
Click to expand...
That is incorrect. The striker is in a half-cocked state. Were all firing-pin safety and trigger mechanisms to suddenly get beamed up by Mr. Scott or get corroded away by a bizzarely selective acid bath while leaving the striker and striker spring miraculously untouched, the striker does not have the inertia to set off a primer from its at-rest position. It must be drawn to its fully-cocked position and released by pulling the trigger.
 
Therapydude:

What holster are you using?

I carry my 1911 style pistols in an IWB holster that also has a thumbreak strap for retention. The thumbreak runs around the back of the slide (resting between cocked hammer and back of slide). As such, it is one whopping cushion should the hammer ever drop (can't imagine how but I'm trying to go with you on this one).

This may set you at ease regarding your C&L fear and probably makes sense from a weapon safety and retention standpoint.

Abudoggie.
 
I've read a lot of pros & cons on cocked & locked, and ran
across an article on the Israeli draw, that says when practiced the weapon can be drawn & the slide racked & first shot fires as fast as in the cocked & locked mode. any opinions ?
Also I just purchased a colt 91A1 & was wondering in what situation should the half-cocked position be used, it doesn't seem safe to me cause the hammer still falls when trigger is pulled and the safety cannot be put on in this position.
 
OK. The safeties are as follows:

1) external safety---the thing you sweep off with your thumb

2) grip safety---the thing that you depress when you properly grip the pistol that allows the trigger to be pulled

3) half-cock notch---if you drop the gun or it slips off the sear (cause-lousy gunsmith/bad trigger job, or 50k rounds), the hammer is stopped before hitting the firing pin

4) series 80 firing pin block----same as the Glock, trigger must be depressed before firing pin can travel to strike the primer

5) Disconnector---keeps the weapon from firing out-of-battery or going full-auto.

In fact, the SA 1911 is SAFER than a Glock. If the mechanical safety and the grip safety are not deactivated, the weapon will not fire if the trigger is snagged on clothing (saw a Glock do this).
 
Big Ken

Where did you read about the Israeli Draw? I am very interested in any info I can get about this technique, especially as I just bought a Baby Eagle 9mm [in addition to the Kahr], which is one of two pistols the Israeli Defense forces uses [in all three calibers: 9mm/.40/.45]. So I would be interested in any info that, even indirectly, relates to the BabyEagle [called the Jericho 941 in Israel]. Thanks!

jason
jmstr@earthlink.net
 
Fellow Shooters,

I've been reading the posts..and whew! there are a lot of opinions of how to carry a weapon, and I believe each one of them valid. Whatever makes you feel comfortable as a method of carry, go for it! Some like cocked n locked, some like hammer at half cock, some like the DAO, Some Glocks and heck, some even like to rack the slide at the last moment to prepare for battle.

Me personally?..Cocked n Locked scares the hell out of me, whether it be with a 1911 or Hk USP, it doesn't matter, I don't feel comfortable. But then I feel perfecly comfortable with a Glock fully loaded. Can accidents happen?..yep. Can we get a AD when charging the weapon? Yep!
Some AD's are truly that- a weapon malfunction. Most are not what I called AD's..you put your finger on the trigger, it went boom...whether it was when you were lowering a hammer or putting it in a holster. I've even seen so called AD's from folks drawing from a holster and in their haste popped a round off before they were ready.

Anyway..whatever floats yer boat and makes you comfortable..I say "Go for it!". No one can take responsibility for your weapon better than you.

Good SHooting
Red
 
With a 1911, cocked and locked is the only way to go if your intent is to carry the thing loaded and ready to use. After a bit of practice, drawing the weapon and manipulating the safeties and the trigger in sequence becomes second nature as does putting it back on safe before reholstering.
I don't know anything about Glocks or about which whatever is safer than what, but consider all of the 1911 safety features. It will not fire unless a round is chambered, the slide is fully closed, the hammer is cocked, the grip safety is depressed, the manual safety is off and the trigger is pulled. On top of that the series 80 has an additional fiting pin safety.
A cocked and locked 1911 is VERY safe if the person carrying it has the requisite knowlege and training.
 
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