Why does the thought of carrying "cocked & locked" make me so nervous?

T

Therapydude

New member
First of all, I'll confess that I don't own any 1911 style handguns. To be honest, I've never even fired one (my experience thus far has been strictly with DA/SA and DAO pistols and revolvers). However, I've always been intrigued by the timeless design created by Mr. Browning (if it's been around for 90 years, it must be pretty good). Therefore, I've often thought of purchasing a 1911 style handgun for concealed carry. In my opinion, condition one (cocked & locked) is the only way to go, since it takes the least time to ready the weapon for firing. However, the thought of carrying "cocked & locked" makes me a little nervous. I realize that there are three mechanisms which must be depressed before firing (manual safety, grip safety, and trigger (covered by a quality holster)). Also, I realize that carrying a 1911 "cocked & locked" is really no different than carrying a loaded rifle or shotgun with the safety in the "on" position. I guess it must be the visible hammer that gets to me. Anyone else feel a little nervous about "cocked & locked" carry with the 1911 (or one of it's variants)?
 
I think that a lot of people have.....

had that twitchy feeling about C&L when they first started carrying a 1911/1911A1/Government model. I may have but that was over 30 years back so I can't remember. If you do get a 1911, let me suggest that you carry it C&L around the house in the holster that you would use out of the house but with an empty chamber. After a while it will seem natural to you. You will find out that the thumb safety does not work off, the hammer does not fall on its own etc.
 
S/A Pistol Accidental Discharge

Why anyone is afraid to carry a well designed pistol in a cocked and locked (C&L) condition is now beyond me! I have had one accidental discharge (AD) with a pistol and that was with a FM High-Power. I was in the habit, I now know better, of lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber and then putting it away. I used it for a house gun. After the AD I learned to keep the pistol C&L in a hurry. No one was hurt and I now keep all single action pistols C&L while on my person. Why? I learned the hard way that this is the mode they were designed for. Regards, Richard
 
I had the same feeling untill I started carrying a glock...a great gun but I got to thinking..you know here I am carrying a gun with a cocked firing pin..and no grip safety and I went back to my 1911...I still love the Glock it just made me aware that one is just as safe as the other.
 
It's always made me a little nervous, too.

But, I've always been a big revolver kind of guy for CCW, and only recently started carrying a P7M13.

I've got a lot of other guns that I'd pick to carry before my 1911, so the way I figure it, it's never going to be an issue for me...
 
I used to get nervous, but it grew on me. Try thumb cocking your 1911 with only one hand in a situation where you need to fire immediately and cocked and locked will seem a lot more sensible. :)
 
No offense, but part of the reason you are nervous about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is simply due to not understanding how safe the gun actually is. Standard (old style such as the 70s) 1911s have two safeties. Series 80s actually have three.

Of course, the visual que of the cocked hammer and knowing that there is a bullet in the battery sounds pretty ominous.
 
I felt nervous with cocked and locked when I first started carrying 1911. I followed some good advice that quickly desensitized me to my fear. I carried the gun for awhile around the house and on the property doing a variety of things, cocked and locked but with the gun and magazine totally empty of all amunition.

Through bending, twisting, running and all kinds of things the hammer never fell. Not, at least, until I depressed the grip safety, flicked off the thumb safety, put my finger in the trigger guard and pulled the trigger. It worked just like it was supposed to and that alone was reassuring.

Oh, yeah, for awhile I carried with a thumb break but the darned thumb break thinking that the retention strap would give an extra measure of safety preventing the hammer falling on a live round. But, I found that the retention strap kept flicking off the thumb safety. So, I scrapped that and went to an open top safety. No more problems with the thumb safety getting deactiviated on its own.

RJ
 
For me the realization that when, I carry my 870 in the feild with the saftey on there is less safteys and it is in the same condition that a cocked and locked handgun is in (you just can't see the hammer) did it. Carrying a shotgun doesnt bother you does it? It is just something you have to get used to.


By the way a glock is not truly cocked when there is a round in the chamber it is half cocked if you will.
 
"half-cocked"

Just like the Kahr, the Sigma, and probably a few other designs, the trigger pull is actually completing the cocking stroke of the striker.

What was tough, for me, was switching over, from a cocked-and-locked Officer's ACP, to the DAO Kahr K9. I still find myself trying to sweep down the safety to fire, and then trying to use a high thumb shooting grip. Grrr!

I may just go back to the Officer's ACP, and find myself a Milt Sparks Summer Special IWB holster for the little guy, now that my new job requires I wear nice civilian clothes. (The main reason I bought the "pocketable" K9 to begin with)
 
I had a similar experience to Richard's. I was carrying a Para Ord P10 at the time and I was not comfortable with it being cocked and locked. I would normally chamber a round and then slowly let the hammer down. I must have gotten too used to this operation and got careless (not that it should have been done in the first place). The hammer slipped and I shot a round through my upstairs bedroom floor. Scared the hell out of me for a long time and made me evaluate my priorities and safe gun handling practices.

I still enjoy shooting 1911 style actions but I prefer to carry a DA/SA. I like having the option of decocking the hammer after firing a few rounds or after first chambering a round. Although, as it gets warmer, I have been carrying my Khar P9 more frequently and that is basically in the same condition as a C&L 1911 except it has no manual safety. I still hesitate somewhat with a C&L 1911 but not with the Khar. The mind works in strange ways.

As perverse as it sounds, I am glad the AD happened because no one got hurt and it taught me an unforgetable lesson and I have not been complacent about a loaded/unloaded firearm since.
 
Gewehr98,

Is it a mauser that you shoot? name and year just ring a bell. Anyway, I was wondering how you liked the Kahr, other than it not being a single-action? Please let me know if there is anything to be carefull about with it. I am about 8 days from taking one home [I found a used one K9 for about $325, so I grabbed it.] and want to know if there are any secrets to clean it or operate it more effectively. Thanks.

As far as the theme of this post, I am glad I read it as my next pistol will be a 1911 and you have all given me some great advice as to how to get over my own concerns about cocked and locked. Thanks!

jason
jmstr@earthlink.net
 
Therapydude, take all this advice to heart. I carry a cocked and locked Series 70 Colt Commander. It's a very fast first shot. Now, you want to talk concerned? I've got a friend at work with a S&W Model 60 who carries the gun with the hammer ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER. I've tried telling him it's okay not to, but he won't hear of it. Regards, LBC.
 
My experience has been the opposite. I cut my teeth on the 1911 in the Army and I still recall the training I received on the multiple safeties of the 1911. The 1911 was the "best handgun in the world", just as the M60 was the "best tank in the world". The indoctrination worked on me. I have always been nervous carrying anything but a cocked and locked 1911. Had a Glock 30 and sold it quick when its heavy forward weight brought the gun out of my grasp and tumbling to the floor. I have only recently warmed up to a Glock 19.
 
I think it's mainly a psychological issue in that you "see" the hammer back and ready to fire. People don't get nervous about carrying their Remington 1100's, AR's, or 10-22's "cocked and locked", it's the same thing. Just that you can't see the weapon is ready to fire, but really mechanically the same situation is in effect.
 
Mike, I'm soon to be carrying a P7, or a 1911. To me, there's not a lot of difference between the two styles. The P7 only goes off if you squeeze the grip and press the trigger. The 1911 only goes off if you squeeze the grip, drop the safety, and press the trigger. If you carry a P7, you should have no problems or concerns with a 1911.
 
Doesn't bother me. I function check my M1911s after cleaning. With the safety lowered, but the grip safety not depressed, pull the trigger -- nothing happens. Now depress the grip safety, put the manual safety on, pull the trigger -- nothing happens. With safety lowered and grip safety depressed, pull the trigger -- now the hammer falls. Holding the hammer back, pull the slide back and release. Hammer should stay cocked and the trigger should reset when you let it go forward.

I second the recommendation of carrying a M1911 around the house, chamber-empty, cocked and locked. After a week of doing that, you'll find that the hammer didn't fall, the safety didn't get wiped off.

I prefer M1911s because they fit my hand best, I like the caliber, their thin profile makes them easier to conceal, and the great trigger pull makes it easier for me to shoot them accurately. On the down side, by M1911s haven't been as reliable as my other guns (though I'm working on that).

But if you're just not comfortable with a M1911, there are plenty of other fine choices out there. I prefer M1911s, but I'd feel well armed with one of my Glocks, Kahrs, Sigs, or HKs. Choose what's best for you (which might not be the same as what's best for me).

M1911
 
Jmstr,

I'm starting to grow fond of my K9, which is really something for me - I *was* a devout, single action, cocked and locked kind of guy. I even owned a Glock 17 for a very brief period, and sold it shortly after I acquired it, because I just couldn't stomach the feel of the pistol and especially it's trigger action. That's not to say I wasn't open to the double actions, I've got several S&W revolvers, I force myself to shoot my Chief's Special DAO, and I even shoot my PPC/Steel Challenge race gun DAO for speed. But that comes with the revolver territory, and S&W double action is not too hard to get used to. But when it came time for me to find a concealable handgun, I went all out and had a Caspian Officer's ACP built, and it was/is my mainstay ever since. Fast forward a few years, and here's this cute little police trade-in Kahr K9, with worn blueing, and a Bianchi 3S holster, for just a smidge over $250, including transfer fees. I ask to look at it, and it fit my hand wonderfully! I think to myself about those days when even an Officer's ACP is too big and heavy to pack, the Chief's Special has only 5 rounds of .38, and basically justify to myself why I needed this Kahr. The dealer lets me dry fire it, and it isn't much different than my race-tuned S&W revolver's double action pull. That clinched it.

Since then, I've put just over 100 rounds of assorted 115gr ball and 115gr Silvertips through it, to include 50 rounds at my favorite steel plate rack at 25 yards. The "Used Kahr" hasn't hiccuped in firing even once, and those steel plates fell with authority, just line up the top of the sights with the top of the plate, and "Clang!". The DAO pull really is that smooth.

What to watch out for? My particular gun shoots a bit low, but I'll fix that when I parkerize it, after shortening the front sight. It does have a tight chamber, or rather, a short throat, and I had one heck of a time trying to open the slide on a chambered round that was just a bit too long in OAL. I ended up using a piece of wood against the ejection port and driving the pistol forward into the soil of my back yard, I didn't want an AD that sent a bullet into the wrong direction. The blueing on the slide was worn and blotched, but the slide and frame are steel, and will take a bead blast and parkerizing, my preferred finish for my "tools". I've heard that Kahr has since then come up with a more durable blueing for their non-stainless K9's.

Once you've got it unloaded and checked for an empty chamber, takedown is a bit tricky, in that you have to hold the slide open in the proper position against the stout recoil spring, then drive the takedown pin out using a dowel or soft mallet, vs. simply pushing it out like a 1911. Kahr now sells a takedown plug that aligns the slide when inserted into the chamber. Once the takedown pin is out, you snap the trigger to release the half-cocked striker, and move the slide forward off the frame rails. From there on it's much like a 1911, with the recoil spring under the barrel on it's guide rod, then the barrel pops out of the slide. Owner's manuals are $5.00 from Kahr's website, but I doubt you'll have much trouble with your pistol. I figured if I didn't like mine, I could sell it fairly easily, but now it's become a keeper.
 
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