Wreck-n-Crew
New member
If they made a 9mm size bullet travel at .357 velocities with a 158grn bullet that expands to 1.5" then there is the next best thing to a perfect balance for me! But they don't make that bullet...
Why does penetration matter?
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Clothing is also a big part of the equation. Sure that HP round by brand x can penetrate through 12 inches of ballistic gel. But ballistic gel doesn't always account for clothing, muscle structure of everyone, and bone. So that HP round that gets 12 inches in ballistic gel might not get anymore than 7 or 8 in a real life situation. But as one poster pointed out, the average pistol round (outside of the magnum class) is not the best man stopper even with the best ammo. Double taps are key in using pistols.
Let's take a look...at Federal's website they offer a good deal of information on the tests they have done with and for law enforcement shooting into the standard test medium of 10% ballistic gelatin. Below are a couple of examples of two separate 40 S&W loads both 165 gr. Gold Dot HP one 53949 traveling at 1050 fps and the other 53970 doing 1150 fps. They have fired in bare gelatin and fired with various barriers in front of the gelatin and tracking in depth of penetration.
http://le.atk.com/downloads/technical_bulletins/PenetrationComparison53949vs53970.pdf
http://le.atk.com/ammunition/speer/handgun/compare.aspx?compare=53949,53970
You can compare these test results to other caliber and loads to get an idea of how a given bullet will perform.
This is useful information for shooters and helps in the production of better working bullets.
Does it tell you how your bullets will perform in a specific shooting? No and it's not meant to. But it does let you know how it will likely perform under certain circumstances.
tipoc
Biff Tannen
New member
safety
as a city slicker, the biggest issue is safety. To sum up, you don't want OVER penetration, to protect innocent people in the vicinity.
Stay safe and God bless.
as a city slicker, the biggest issue is safety. To sum up, you don't want OVER penetration, to protect innocent people in the vicinity.
Stay safe and God bless.
The purpose of the exit wound in hunting is so that it leaves a trail of blood on the ground instead of having it bleed out internally so that you can easily trail it until it realizes it is dead.
The ability of clothing to stop bullets is greatly underestimated.
Hardly scientific, but last weekend I set up 2 layers on insulated coveralls, 1 layer of insulalled sweatshirt, a one gallon milk jug full of water, another layer of insulated sweatshirt, and fired a 148gr DEWC from a .38 snubbie (780fps) from 15' and it passed through everything and still manged to pass through the 1/2 plywood behind it. I then increased to 4 layers of coveralls, one layer of sweatshirt, 1 water jug, another layer of sweatshirt and it again passed through everything, but did not make it through the plywood backing, just dented it.
Overpenetration is not matter of shooting through somebody and hitting an innocent. Its about passing through walls, building materials, garbage cans, bushes and every other typical potential backstop that could keep your bullet from taking an innocent. A 9mm with ball ammo will easily penetrate an exterior wall of most houses and could potentially kill someone inside. That is moverpenetration. It would be hard to justify the need to shoot through cars, walls, and cover in all but rare civilian self defense situations.
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As a rural rat, MY biggest issue is effectiveness. To sum up, I want a round that will get where it needs to go, no matter what (providing I do my part correctly). In a defensive situation, my concern for innocent people in the vicinity is much, much, much less than my concern for my personal butt, or the lives of loved ones I might be defending.
I am in agreement with this. I can remember a time when police were forbidden to carry (and use) hollowpoints because of the fear of how the public would react to seeing them. Back then, police usually carried spare ammo in belt loops, where everyone could see it. The myth of overpenetration was created to allow political justification for the police to use the most effective round (hollowpoints), and not be considered "killers".
buck460XVR
New member
Interesting. An old cop I looked up to half a century ago, told me back then, his agency used FMJs for the same reason the military did. They were believed to be more humane because chance of survival was greater. IOWs the idea was more to stop the threat as opposed to killing the threat. BGs musta been wimpier back then, I dunno. But it was a small town cop back in the early sixties.
All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.
As mentioned earlier, penetration may require passing through heavy clothing, an arm (bone and/or soft tissue) and bones of the rib cage. When considering overpenetration, penetrating the skin when exiting the body equals another 4" of ballistic gel.
Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair.
I expect all handguns to underperform, some underperform worse than others.
Tomac
As mentioned earlier, penetration may require passing through heavy clothing, an arm (bone and/or soft tissue) and bones of the rib cage. When considering overpenetration, penetrating the skin when exiting the body equals another 4" of ballistic gel.
Barring a hit to the CNS, the only way to stop an aggressive and determined BG is shutting down the brain from oxygen deprivation due to bleedout. However, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to plant daisies in your hair.
I expect all handguns to underperform, some underperform worse than others.
Tomac
mavracer: said:
NYPD had several bullets pass through suspects and strike, and in some cases kill, innocents downrange, when they issued the 115 gr FMJ as duty ammo to the troops. After those incidents, I'd expect that the public would've been demanding that the NYPD issue JHPs. Of course, we are talking about the general public in what is arguably a liberal enclave if ever there was one.
Just on the NYPD stuff. Here's a little background and a summary on why they went from revolvers, to 9mm ball ammo to Federal Gold Dot jhp. The turning point was in 1999 and the killing of Amadou Diallo.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...op-killer-bullet-correction-and-aplification/
http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-g...ayoob-the-dangers-of-over-penetrating-bullets
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13193-NYPD-1999-finally-uses-JHP&
From the April 12, 2012 article by M. Ayoob.
The NYPD was one of the last law enforcement agencies in the U.S. to make the switch to jhp ammo following the transition to semi autos that took place in the 80s and 90s. By 1999 most agencies were using jhp ammo.
The reason is not just "over penetration". The major reason for the use is that jhp rounds tend to inflict more damage when they hit. Ball ammo penetrates more than jhp. It also deforms less when it does hit something. It ricochets more. When a jhp round misses the target and hits a wall it is more likely to deform and lose energy than ball ammo. Ball is more likely to hit and ricochet around the neighborhood.
tipoc
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...op-killer-bullet-correction-and-aplification/
http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-g...ayoob-the-dangers-of-over-penetrating-bullets
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13193-NYPD-1999-finally-uses-JHP&
From the April 12, 2012 article by M. Ayoob.
The NYPD was one of the last law enforcement agencies in the U.S. to make the switch to jhp ammo following the transition to semi autos that took place in the 80s and 90s. By 1999 most agencies were using jhp ammo.
The reason is not just "over penetration". The major reason for the use is that jhp rounds tend to inflict more damage when they hit. Ball ammo penetrates more than jhp. It also deforms less when it does hit something. It ricochets more. When a jhp round misses the target and hits a wall it is more likely to deform and lose energy than ball ammo. Ball is more likely to hit and ricochet around the neighborhood.
tipoc
mavracer: said:
All cited information was taken from my copy of the 1995-1996 NYPD SOP-9.
Taken from the NYT article:
Looks like others here were also able to locate plenty of documentation -from other sources like the NY Times, etc- reflective of the issue of bystanders being struck by FMJ bullets that had passed through suspects. It is a well-documented issue and any of the myriad search engines provides all sorts of results just for the asking...
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overpenetration
Just a question about over penetration. It is a prevalent topic on many
forums that I follow,and I'm just wondering how often it really happens.
Say you shoot a BG with a round of 230 grain .45 caliber "hardball".
Does this typically lead to over penetration,or is it merely a sometime,
atypical thing? Is there a body of real evidence that supports this notion?
Just wondering.
Just a question about over penetration. It is a prevalent topic on many
forums that I follow,and I'm just wondering how often it really happens.
Say you shoot a BG with a round of 230 grain .45 caliber "hardball".
Does this typically lead to over penetration,or is it merely a sometime,
atypical thing? Is there a body of real evidence that supports this notion?
Just wondering.
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