Why does Law Enforcement not like the .45?
- Thread starter johnelmore
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disseminator
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Yep, it was the 45 COLT that was brought into service to defeat the tribesmen. The 45 AUTO was developed a few years later and attempted to match a favorite 225g load that had proven effective in the conflict.
Most of the time the 45 is going to offer superior terminal performance than the 9mm. This is well established at least as far as gel testing is concerned. (Which is what the FBI uses)
Just look up gel tests of Federal HST ammo in 9mm, 40, and 45 AUTO and you will see that though they all perform great ( I carry the HST in all three calibers) the expanded diameter and average penetration increases right along with the caliber.
This isn't enough to offset the advantage of capacity and lighter recoil in the 9mm though.
Many Police have carried the 45. Remember this story from a while back:
https://www.policeone.com/patrol-is...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
Most of the time the 45 is going to offer superior terminal performance than the 9mm. This is well established at least as far as gel testing is concerned. (Which is what the FBI uses)
Just look up gel tests of Federal HST ammo in 9mm, 40, and 45 AUTO and you will see that though they all perform great ( I carry the HST in all three calibers) the expanded diameter and average penetration increases right along with the caliber.
This isn't enough to offset the advantage of capacity and lighter recoil in the 9mm though.
Many Police have carried the 45. Remember this story from a while back:
https://www.policeone.com/patrol-is...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
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Tons of LEO agencies use .45. It is NOT as popular as 9mm for reasons pretty well described already. Capacity, logistics (cost), recoil sensitive trainees, etc. .45 is a good caliber, but in a modern duty sized pistols it is very hard to argue that 10-11 rounds of 45 is better than 18-19 of 9mm.
Many of your points are accurate, some are very debatable, and this one is not intellectually honest. Russia created a 9x21 round that sent a 103grn projectile with a steel penetrator down-range that could defeat lvl II soft armor. 9mm+p, with a light FMJ, may stand a chance at defeating aged and flexed lvl II soft armor but it will hardly be a "zip right through" defeat. None-the-less, LE agencies will not be using 115 gn fmj +p ammo for duty ammo so the argument is moot. A Lvl II vest will stop expanding ammo, even hot 9mm. Admittedly, with it's lower velocity and larger surface area, .45 doesn't stand a chance of defeating LVL II body armor.
.45 is a great round, and I reject that it offers absolutely nothing over 9mm as many others do. I won't start that argument, however, as it does not net any real advantage over 9mm when you account for capacity. Plus Nato (not SAAMI) 9mm is a different animal than much of our American ammo, even SD/duty ammo.
Many of your points are accurate, some are very debatable, and this one is not intellectually honest. Russia created a 9x21 round that sent a 103grn projectile with a steel penetrator down-range that could defeat lvl II soft armor. 9mm+p, with a light FMJ, may stand a chance at defeating aged and flexed lvl II soft armor but it will hardly be a "zip right through" defeat. None-the-less, LE agencies will not be using 115 gn fmj +p ammo for duty ammo so the argument is moot. A Lvl II vest will stop expanding ammo, even hot 9mm. Admittedly, with it's lower velocity and larger surface area, .45 doesn't stand a chance of defeating LVL II body armor.
.45 is a great round, and I reject that it offers absolutely nothing over 9mm as many others do. I won't start that argument, however, as it does not net any real advantage over 9mm when you account for capacity. Plus Nato (not SAAMI) 9mm is a different animal than much of our American ammo, even SD/duty ammo.
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zincwarrior
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Because a person with normal hands can hold a firearm with 17 or 19 rounds in it. 1911s cannot.
Pretty close.
yes, it was the .38 Long Colt that didn't perform well enough, and as the bandaid the Army sent a bunch of Colt SAA's in .45 Colt. Then some DA guns in .45 Colt. By the time the 1911 came along the Moro uprising had mostly died down, though a friend tells me the last battle was in 1913, and some 1911s were involved.
The failure of the .38 to perform well didn't exactly create the .45acp, but it re-enforced the Army's resolve about what level of performance they needed from the new semi auto pistol under consideration.
And that level of performance was the equivalent of the .45 Schofield.
It would put down a man, it would put down a horse. It was a "known quantity" in the Army, and they wanted it in their new semi auto, which became the 1911. And, they got it.
It was brought back into service temporarily. It was the issue cartridge from 1873 to 1887.
While it was developed to replicate the ballistics of the .45Colt, it wasn't, as far as I can tell, due to how well the .45Colt performed in the Moro rebellion. Reports were that even rifles were not especially effective against the Moros--one report indicates that a Moro soaked up almost 3 dozen rounds of 30-40Krag before he died of a bullet to the brain. The only real success story against them was the 12ga shotgun.
I was a cop in 1993 department issued revolvers, allowed carry of select personally owned firearms; I carried my Glock 21 with night sights.
Why doesn't LE issue 45 acp? Capacity.
"Small stature" / small hand people may find the grip of 13 + 1 capacity Glock 21 too large.
Most LE would not want a single stack 45 holding 8 rounds rather than a Glock 19 holding 15 rounds.
15 rounds vs 8
9mm HST expands .6x
45 HST expands .8x
Performance of 9mm is "good enough" and since many shots miss the target, are poorly placed, or not quickly effective additional bullets are desirable.
I still carry the Glock 21 rather than a Glock 19 - only two rounds less in exchange for bullets with more "potential".
Despite the cliche they perform "about the same" in regard to pistol bullets, I'd rather have larger bullets than smaller.
A doctor trying to save a patient may not try to discern the difference in bullet wounds and say "not much difference" - I doubt it is a priority.
Doc / surgeon doesn't see what happened during incident and that is important.
What happened when the bullet(s) struck the attacker- was the attacker incapacitated in 8 seconds or 2 minutes - doc didn't see that.
Did the bullet(s) cause the attacker to stagger / pause aggressive action giving defender time to take cover / place more shots - doc didn't see that.
Why doesn't LE issue 45 acp? Capacity.
"Small stature" / small hand people may find the grip of 13 + 1 capacity Glock 21 too large.
Most LE would not want a single stack 45 holding 8 rounds rather than a Glock 19 holding 15 rounds.
15 rounds vs 8
9mm HST expands .6x
45 HST expands .8x
Performance of 9mm is "good enough" and since many shots miss the target, are poorly placed, or not quickly effective additional bullets are desirable.
I still carry the Glock 21 rather than a Glock 19 - only two rounds less in exchange for bullets with more "potential".
Despite the cliche they perform "about the same" in regard to pistol bullets, I'd rather have larger bullets than smaller.
A doctor trying to save a patient may not try to discern the difference in bullet wounds and say "not much difference" - I doubt it is a priority.
Doc / surgeon doesn't see what happened during incident and that is important.
What happened when the bullet(s) struck the attacker- was the attacker incapacitated in 8 seconds or 2 minutes - doc didn't see that.
Did the bullet(s) cause the attacker to stagger / pause aggressive action giving defender time to take cover / place more shots - doc didn't see that.
The Columbia, SC Police Department issued SIG Sauer P220s chambered in .45 ACP for many years.
Their rationale for switching to the FN FNS in 9mm were the following: capacity, cost, ease of training, and the fact that modern ammunition made 9x19mm as effective as .45ACP in the intended role.
Their rationale for switching to the FN FNS in 9mm were the following: capacity, cost, ease of training, and the fact that modern ammunition made 9x19mm as effective as .45ACP in the intended role.
I was responsible for the firearms program in my department, love the .45 caliber cartridge but for our needs it had too many disadvantages. The biggest problem was training those of slight stature ( both sexes) and/or those who lacked desire to become proficient with their weapons ( firearm, stick or personal defense) and felt a good taser hit was a perfect substitute for the inconvience of learning other defensive measures.
A sister city equipped their officers with Sig .45's only to revert back to the 9mm the reasons given above were a good part of the decision.
Just look at the injury statistics today and you will find a large number of officers are injured assisting those who through lack of ability could not protect themselves.
Unfortunately today, unlike the military of yesteryear, a person cannot simply be told to become proficient or clean out your locker.
A sister city equipped their officers with Sig .45's only to revert back to the 9mm the reasons given above were a good part of the decision.
Just look at the injury statistics today and you will find a large number of officers are injured assisting those who through lack of ability could not protect themselves.
Unfortunately today, unlike the military of yesteryear, a person cannot simply be told to become proficient or clean out your locker.
There's no such thing as "stopping power". However, it's that myth that keeps .45 calibre pistols out of LEO holsters. The perception of big bullets making big holes in people, hence excessive wounding, does it too.
"...a person with normal hands can..." That very much depends on the pistol. No DA or 'wonder nine' fits my hand. Mind you, a BHP does.
"...yet 9mm zips right through..." Nonsense. Any vest that'll stop a .45 ACP will stop a 9mm too. A 9mm ball round turns into a perfect little mushroom with fibre cross hatching on top.
"...windshield or car door where a 45 ACP will not..." Not true either. No point shooting at either a windshield or car door in the first place. Really stupid thing to do anyway. Incapacitating the driver does not stop the vehicle.
"...a person with normal hands can..." That very much depends on the pistol. No DA or 'wonder nine' fits my hand. Mind you, a BHP does.
"...yet 9mm zips right through..." Nonsense. Any vest that'll stop a .45 ACP will stop a 9mm too. A 9mm ball round turns into a perfect little mushroom with fibre cross hatching on top.
"...windshield or car door where a 45 ACP will not..." Not true either. No point shooting at either a windshield or car door in the first place. Really stupid thing to do anyway. Incapacitating the driver does not stop the vehicle.
Given that you may have to return fire from inside a vehicle, it's not too stupid in that instance. In addition you're not going to incapacitate a standard vehicle with a handgun. Tires that are shot lose air slowly, no explosive decompression like a movie. Good luck getting through an engine block after going through the hood or side panels with a handgun bullet. Even when I've seen it done with a rifle there's a degree of luck to it as deflection becomes pretty common once you're inside the engine compartment. .308 worked nicely though, and shotguns as far as hurting the occupants of the vehicle are damn effective. Sometimes the only option is to try to incapacitate the driver.
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LE interest in .45 ACP has experienced growth in the last couple of decades.
The last couple of times my former agency polled its few hundreds of sworn/armed members about caliber preference (when ordering new guns), the rank & file expressed a preference for .45 ACP which exceeded 70%. (This was even after inviting people to come to the range and test-fire representative samples before making their choice.)
Each time, however, once the guns arrived and people had to start actually training and qualifying with them, some disadvantages (predictably) surfaced among some of the users. These "disadvantages" were typically the larger grip girth (compared to the 9/.40 guns) and the heavier felt recoil.
From the agency's FTU perspective, it typically meant more time having to help people adjust to the larger grips and increased recoil, which meant more instructor, ammo & related range costs (targets, back-fill for people to attend range sessions, etc) ... or having to let the shooter choose a smaller 9/.40 option (meaning weapon inventory was affected) ... and then there was the cost of the .45 ammo, compared to the less expensive 9/.40 ammo. This is still the case, even though the new CA state contract lists all 4 major LE duty calibers. Of the two .45 JHP's on the contract (HST & Gold Dot), the Speer .45 Gold Dot costs even more than the .357SIG Gold Dot.
Personally, even as a long time .45 ACP aficionado (I own 9 pistols chambered in it), and I previously carried a couple of issued .45's (but also guns chambered in both 9 & .40, over the years) ... from the perspective of being both an instructor and an armorer, if I were asked to wave my magic wand and issue ONE caliber that would best serve the interests of everyone having to carry a pistol? It would be one or another of the several good quality 9's on the market at present, and one (or more) of the newer 9mm JHP's being offered by the major American ammo makers.
The 9mm allows agencies to better utilize ever dwindling budgets for paying instructors/staffing ranges, buying ammo and helping even average shooters improve their skillsets. We're not trying to make Master shooters out of the average cop, any more than we're trying to make NASCAR drivers or authors out of them when we train them to drive patrol veh's or write reports.
The last couple of times my former agency polled its few hundreds of sworn/armed members about caliber preference (when ordering new guns), the rank & file expressed a preference for .45 ACP which exceeded 70%. (This was even after inviting people to come to the range and test-fire representative samples before making their choice.)
Each time, however, once the guns arrived and people had to start actually training and qualifying with them, some disadvantages (predictably) surfaced among some of the users. These "disadvantages" were typically the larger grip girth (compared to the 9/.40 guns) and the heavier felt recoil.
From the agency's FTU perspective, it typically meant more time having to help people adjust to the larger grips and increased recoil, which meant more instructor, ammo & related range costs (targets, back-fill for people to attend range sessions, etc) ... or having to let the shooter choose a smaller 9/.40 option (meaning weapon inventory was affected) ... and then there was the cost of the .45 ammo, compared to the less expensive 9/.40 ammo. This is still the case, even though the new CA state contract lists all 4 major LE duty calibers. Of the two .45 JHP's on the contract (HST & Gold Dot), the Speer .45 Gold Dot costs even more than the .357SIG Gold Dot.
Personally, even as a long time .45 ACP aficionado (I own 9 pistols chambered in it), and I previously carried a couple of issued .45's (but also guns chambered in both 9 & .40, over the years) ... from the perspective of being both an instructor and an armorer, if I were asked to wave my magic wand and issue ONE caliber that would best serve the interests of everyone having to carry a pistol? It would be one or another of the several good quality 9's on the market at present, and one (or more) of the newer 9mm JHP's being offered by the major American ammo makers.
The 9mm allows agencies to better utilize ever dwindling budgets for paying instructors/staffing ranges, buying ammo and helping even average shooters improve their skillsets. We're not trying to make Master shooters out of the average cop, any more than we're trying to make NASCAR drivers or authors out of them when we train them to drive patrol veh's or write reports.
Also with a 9mm follow up shots are faster. I think most everybody is faster with a 9mm and with +p or +p+ ammo it is a very effective round and I will argue as effective as .45 rounds. Even standard velocity hollow points are a good round so the police are well armed with most any hollow point 9mm ammo. Whatever makes them be able to use their firearm easier is good.
reynolds357
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Most departments carry only one cartridge. Too many officers can't shoot .45 accurately. .45 either has reduced mag capacity or is much larger frame than 9mm. The modern 9mm statistically outperforms the .45.
jackstrawIII
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It's amazing how many people ignore the data and stick to the "bigger bullet" or "won 2 world wars" arguments.
I carry a 9mm for the same reason the police do.
I carry a 9mm for the same reason the police do.
carguychris
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AFAIK the auto sheet metal and glass penetration tests are based on autos built before people worried about trivialities like saturated fat or fuel economy—i.e. vintage Detroit lead sleds with old-school body-on-frame construction, built at a time when more weight was considered a selling feature in and of itself.johnelmore said:
I've read in various gun mags that mobile bandits in autos were one of the main reasons that police adopted .357 Magnum revolvers in the mid to late 1930s; .45 ACP and .45 Colt would not consistently penetrate car bodies of the time except at very close range. The use of 9mm and .357 SIG is a modern extension of this thinking.
Blanket statement and Federal Ammunition's testing indicates otherwise:
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
Safety Glass
Gold Dot 9mm 147 gr. 12.9'' / .56
Gold Dot 45 acp 230 gr. 13.1'' / .60
Steel
Gold Dot 9mm 147 gr. 19.4'' / .42
Gold Dot 45 acp 230 gr. 19.4'' / .51
Spats McGee
Administrator
Bingo. LE firearms, ammunition, and training all has to be gotten & performed within certain budgets. Those budgets are in competition with other budgets, like roads, fire protection, parks, etc., and are set by committees made up of non-LEOs. The committees take all kinds of things into account when deciding how much to allocate. "We have X officers, so we'll need X+Y guns to account for guns in for repairs. We'll need M amount of ammo, and T number of hours of training and re-qualifications . . . "fastbolt said:
With all of that said, as far as I can tell, .40 is the most popular LE caliber around here, but there are still a few agencies that issue .45. AFAIK, no agency around here issues 9mm, but that may change over time, given the FBI switch.
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