why does everybody hate uber magnums?

[Drill Sergeant]

Bigger Is Better. No?

Many subscribe to the theme that bigger is always better. When I was a kid we heard about the mighty .357 Magnum; the most powerful handgun in the world. "It would actually lift a block from an automobile", we were told. There were stories about Mr. Wesson of Smith & Wesson fame shooting everything up to elephant with this monster Magnum. Wow. Now when you read one of the popular gun mags, many of the scribes state that the once powerful .357 is too small a caliber for deer. You need the 475 Linebaugh or the new 500 Magnums, 'cause you can reach out to rifle distances with them.

I have taken deer, antelope and javelina with my .41 & 44 Magnum handguns, only because I did not have a .357 with me at the time. Never a shot over 25 yards. I once went on a Wyoming deer hunt with five friends; each had a .243 while I had my .30-06. I teased them all the way from AZ to WY about their 'little pop guns'. Long story short; we each took a deer with our rifles. They each downed theirs with one shot, while my mighty '06 took two. I no longer tease those who carry what they can soot well.

If you can hit with it, use it; .243 or 458 Magnum. Just don't shoot past your abilities. Ever.

 

[Todd1700]

I don't hate them. It would be kind of silly to hate an inanimate object. I also do not care what you use as long as you are safe with it and shoot it well. I even own a 7mm mag that I purchased in my younger magnumitis phase. I rarely take it to the woods anymore however.

What irks a lot of people I think is the attitude that these giant stomper magnums are needed for deer sized animals and that anyone hunting with anything less than a 300 win mag is under gunned and probably a girly man that just can't handle the recoil of a "mans" gun. LOL!

You hear a lot of BS language hurled around like "more margin for error" "something that will put him down right there every time", and "in case I need to reach way out there"

Course the truth of the situation is this.

Margin of error is BS. A bad hit is a bad hit. Gut shoot an animal and you might not find it whether you use a 243 or a 375 H&H magnum.

There is also no caliber or cartridge that ensures a DRT kill every time. How far a deer goes after the shot is far more a matter of where it was hit than what it was hit with.

And finally as far as reaching way out there? Almost none of the hunters I have met in my life here in Alabama have ever shot at a paper target farther than 300 yards away. Most haven't shot at one out to 300 yards. And that being the case they have little hope and no business trying a 400 or 500 yard shot. No matter what the ballistics chart says about their new cannon, if you haven't practiced it, don't do it.

Add to this equation that the average shot distance on deer here in Alabama is less than 100 yards anyway and you begin to understand why some of us chuckle at these guys who march into the deer woods down here with a rifle filled with shells the size of a Mark 14 torpedo to shoot 150 lb deer at 75 yards?

Many of these guys have a wicked recoil induced flinch too. When I started work at the hospital I am at now there was a guy there who had just purchased a 300 WSM but was disappointed because he was still having deer run after the shot. He was on the verge, seriously, of buying a 338 magnum when I started working with him. I talking into putting that on hold and started getting him to come shoot with me. He was a terrible shot and it was easy to see why. He was nearly jerking his whole head out from behind the scope at the shot. After much work with him I got him to get a 7mm-08 which he shot much better. He used it for a year and never missed a deer or had a deer go more than 40 yards.

Ahhh, but the magnumitis disease is hard to permanently defeat. He stepped up to a 7mm mag this year and guess what? He lost a doe already that he shot at less than 80 yards. Hmmm, wonder why? LOL!

 

[fast-eddie]

After being on this forum for almost a year I haven't really seen anyone say get ridiculed for using a magnum or for not using one. I was ridiculed once for not liking recoil, but I could get used to anything with enough practice, I just choose not to.

I do have a hankering lately for a big bore lever though.

 

[Ryanfromcanada]

"I do have a hankering lately for a big bore lever though."

+1

 

[Daryl]

Ahhh, but the magnumitis disease is hard to permanently defeat. He stepped up to a 7mm mag this year and guess what? He lost a doe already that he shot at less than 80 yards. Hmmm, wonder why? LOL!

Different people handle recoil differently, that's for sure.

I stand 5'7", and wiegh around 140 lbs. I've used a 7mm Rem Mag for something like 23 years and have shot a lot of animals with it at various ranges. I've never lost one, and only had a couple that ever took a step after being hit. I don't remember missing much with it, either.

But, I don't consider the 7mm Rem Mag to be an "uber-mag". It's pretty much a smaller diameter equal to the 30-06 (hey, don't take my word for it; check the charts). It shoots a tiny bit flatter with most loads, and has a tiny bit more energy, but not enough to add up to much when you get right down to it.

I'll freely admit that the .300 Win Mag is toward the top of what I can shoot comfortably, and I'd rather shoot my 7mm mag. Short of the big bears, there's nothing in NA I'd need a bigger cartridge for.

But I suppose the "Peter Principle" can be applied to shooting in many cases, too. We each have our level.

With guns lasting a lifetime or more, I reckon the pretense of "bigger is better" is as good a way to sell more firearms as any.

Daryl

 

[a7mmnut]

The Rest of the Story...........

If I had an '06 again, I'm sure it would do just fine. Unfortunately, I put the last few bucks down with my 7mm Rem. Mag., .300 Weatherby, and the .444 Marlin. The biggest buck of my life was killed way back in 1991 with the then-virginesque Rem. 700 in .300 Weatherby shooting 180 gr. Core Lokts. I had set up on a steep, thick hardwood ridge overlooking a long creek bottom. Maximum range was around 650 yards.

Unbeknownst to me, a couple of those "gomers" I mentioned were already up the bottom above me as my brother set me out of the truck. I had planned on hunting the heavily-rubbed oaks until dark, then hike a 1/2 mile or so back to the house. I had already killed a smaller buck under the same blind the previous week with my .54 cal. Knight.

I saw absolutely nothing for two hours, then just before dark all Hades broke loose. Some redneck was riding an ATV along the creek in front of me started jumping and shooting does out of the thickets. His buddies were shooting back at different angles. My stomach was sick. I was just happy to be high on the ridge and out of the crossfire. At dusk, I heard the ATV being loaded onto their truck, but they didn't leave.

All was suddenly quiet. I caught movement out of my right eye. Just below me, and about 35 yards to my right came the big guy sneaking along the ridge crest in apparent safety. I eased the safety off and hunkered low in my natural blind. A couple of more steps and I anchored him for good high in his left shoulder. He was a typical 12 point, with one split tine and an extra beam on one side. He weighed 235 lbs. You know what? No exit wound! The soft Core Lokt completely disintegrated inside his shoulders.

I could have just as well had my trusty 7-30 Waters Contender with me, as it lay on the truck seat beside me. In the end, I was glad I hadn't--though I'm sure it would have done the job, only with a little tracking--and IF the gomers didn't find him first. Thank God for choices.

-7-



PS--Sorry about the picture rotation.

 

[a7mmnut]

One more thought.....

Another consideration for long range shooting just came to light on another thread. Calibers like the .308 I love as well will have to have special scope mounts with windage and elevation adjustments to offset the heavy drop of slowing bullets at ranges beyond 550-600. Plus one for the mags, again. -7-

 

[Daryl]

Another consideration for long range shooting just came to light on another thread. Calibers like the .308 I love as well will have to have special scope mounts with windage and elevation adjustments to offset the heavy drop of slowing bullets at ranges beyond 550-600. Plus one for the mags, again. -7-

For such shooting, the bigger mags are a better choice. Bullet drop with the .308 at that distance would require exact range knowledge, with very little margin for error. When the bullet is dropping in like a mortar round, you can't be off by much on the range; not to mention wind drift estimation with the slower bullet also gets tricky.

But folks who shoot those ranges and beyond are my primary reason for not caring much for some folks who use them.

The ones who can do it consistently don't need to have things brought up in an internet thread. They already know what it involves to make it work.

And I have no problem with those folks' style of hunting. It's the wannabe marksmen that only think they know enough to do it that bother me.

I recently talked with a guy who was convinced that his .308 shot perfectly flat to 500 yards...because his buddy told him so, and his buddy has been shooting a .308 for over 5 years. I have to wonder how many 500 yard shots the guy has taken in that 5 years?

Again, those who can do it don't have to ask.

Daryl

 

[Christchild]

But, I don't consider the 7mm Rem Mag to be an "uber-mag". It's pretty much a smaller diameter equal to the 30-06 (hey, don't take my word for it; check the charts). It shoots a tiny bit flatter with most loads, and has a tiny bit more energy, but not enough to add up to much when you get right down to it.

Well...I'm not quite sure what is meant by this statement. While the 7mm Rem. Mag. isn't a TRAINLOAD faster/flatter than the '06, it's still a whole different animal. I've never squeezed the trigger on a rifle chambered for 7mm Mag, but 1, I understand the numbers, and 2, I DO pick up a bit of range brass. I don't have an '06 but I've got quite a bit of '06 brass in great condition, and I also have a few pieces of 7mm Rem. Mag.....Very big difference in cartridge case dimensions. I would NOT hunt North America with one of the magnums unless I was after Smokie...

 

[Daryl]

Well...I'm not quite sure what is meant by this statement. While the 7mm Rem. Mag. isn't a TRAINLOAD faster/flatter than the '06, it's still a whole different animal. I've never squeezed the trigger on a rifle chambered for 7mm Mag, but 1, I understand the numbers, and 2, I DO pick up a bit of range brass. I don't have an '06 but I've got quite a bit of '06 brass in great condition, and I also have a few pieces of 7mm Rem. Mag.....Very big difference in cartridge case dimensions. I would NOT hunt North America with one of the magnums unless I was after Smokie...

Then let me explain...


Here's some data on the 30-06:

140 GR. BAR XBT Hodgdon H4350 .308" 3.170" 58.0 2899 40,000 CUP 62.0C 3089 46,500 CUP
140 GR. BAR XBT Hodgdon H414 .308" 3.170" 57.0 2898 41,200 CUP 61.0 3039 45,700 CUP
140 GR. BAR XBT IMR IMR 4350 .308" 3.170" 56.0 2834 fps 43,200 PSI 60.0C 3033 fps 51,900 PSI
140 GR. BAR XBT Hodgdon H380 .308" 3.170" 55.5 2964 44,300 CUP 59.0 3082 48,600 CUP

And here's some sample data on the 7mm Rem Mag:

140 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H4350 .284" 3.250" 56.0 2808 45,500 CUP 59.0 2927 50,000 CUP
140 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H414 .284" 3.250" 58.0 2897 46,700 CUP 60.2 2967 49,300 CUP
140 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4350 .284" 3.250" 59.0 2877 fps 51,400 PSI 62.8 3045 fps 58,600 PSI
140 GR. NOS PART Winchester 760 .284" 3.250" 58.0 2897 46,700 CUP 60.2 2967 49,300 CUP

This data was taken from the Hodgdon powder website, and it shows comparative loads (minimum and maximum) for each cartridge. The bolded is one sample using the exact same powder.

As you can see, the 7mm generates a bit more pressure, but velocities are almost exactly the same. The 7mm bullet will have a better BC, and therefore a flatter trajectory, but they're very close to one another.

and the fact that every action has an equal and opposite reaction has already been proven, so I won't go into that too far. If a 140 grain bullet is launched at a certain velocity, it's going to have a certain amount of recoil. If the rifles are of the same wieght and design, the recoil will be very similar. The 7mm mag needs a bit more pressure in order to get the same velocity because of the smaller bore. That's the one disadvantage, with the advantage already spoken of above (higher BC for same wieght bullets for a flatter trajectory).

Don't let the size of the case fool ya; they're essentially the same, with the 7mm mag having the advantage on trajectory, and the 30-06 having the advantage of being able to shoot heavier bullets and being more efficient on powder usage.

And I've shot them both enough to know that of which I write.

Daryl

 

[a7mmnut]

Daryl,

I would have bought the .280 in an instant at one time. I've owned up to three 7mm Rem. Mags at one time, but never felt like I needed to go "back down" to the .280--definitely the 7mm-08. My question or you is have you or your friends ever loaded those same 140 gr. loads for the .280 Rem.? Even with a 22" tube, those numbers look pretty close to what my old 24" mag. used to shoot. Thanks in advance, -7-

 

[Daryl]

a7mmnut,

No, I haven't messed with the .280 or 7mm-08. I've thought about a lightweight rifle in 7mm-08 as a "mountain gun" type rifle for use when I'm hunting a long ways from roads. So far I've always just taken my 7mm mag. It's not that heavy, but it's long barreled.

Considering the similarities between the 30-06 and the 7mm Rem Mag, I'd think that the .280 would be pretty close. I doubt it'd match the mag with the heavier bullets, which is where the bigger case capacity on the mag would help it some.

Interestingly enough though, loads using 175 grain bullets from the 30-06 and the 7mm mag are very similar as well, but .30 caliber bullets won't sit as far down in the case as a same-weight heavy-for-caliber 7mm bullet, so it won't affect case capacity as much as a longer bullet in the same case (.280 Rem).

That is, unless a guy had a rifle with a long thoated chamber and an action long enough to handle the longer seated bullet. That's my supposition on the matter; perhaps I'll look the data up a bit later when I'm fully awake (it's 2:40 AM here now).

I actually shoot 145 grain Speer bullets, and use 63.8 gr of IMR4350 in my mag. According to the website, I'm overloaded, but I don't get pressure problems in my rifle. I worked up the load back in the 80's using an older manualof that era, and re-check for pressure with each new lot of powder, but I've not had any problems with it.

 

[Art Eatman]

Enuf...