Why do people always say......
- Thread starter tjhands
- Start date
8 years, started working in a small rural county S.O. of 19,000 total population, moved up to a large city PD in the Atlanta Metro area, total city/county population 119,000, I now work for my home county S.O. which has a population combined city and county of around 45,000.
My order of preservations goes like this,
My life/well being
My partner’s life/well being
My paycheck
My partner’s paycheck
Your (the public) @$$
Sorry it goes that way but again I don’t get paid to fight, my state certification says peace officer not ball buster.
I am currently writing a paper for the Georgia Police Academy on the application of deadly force and it’s justification, which will be submitted to POST for inclusion into the basic Peace Officers Training Curriculum. I plan on expanding this into a full 24 hour lecture in about 2 years once the total basic mandate course is expanded allowing me the time within the state required training hours.
This module will cover both armed and unarmed attackers and will be well founded in current case law as well as GA law as the General Counsel for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation interprets it.
Most of my opinions about deadly force against an unarmed attacker have come from those court rulings and not surprisingly make good sense. The courts tend to agree that in the face of uncertainty or overwhelming odds such as an unarmed attacker who without question poses a substantial threat to your ability to fend off an attack because of size disparity or a perceived ability to fight such as an attempt to employ a martial arts or a display of the same in your presence, which places you in fear of great bodily harm due to your in ability to counter such threats you can use deadly force.
You are either missing or circling deliberately the whole crux of the argument, which was use of force vs. street fighting and the level of force introduced at the beginning was deadly, I began to inject other options into the basis of the argument, while not trying to stray from the original topic.
The gun option
As for using other means that too would depend on the totality of the situation, was this initially a peaceful contact, which began to escalate up the R.A.M. chain or was it full blown charge towards me once the cars come to a stop and his door flies open, he barrels out full bore at me, giving me little to no time to even think about assessing the threat, just reaction.
If you recall from you basic training you should know that action is three to five as fast as reaction even with the most seasoned of gunfighters.
Remember I hope you recall from your police academy days that you are only required by law to act upon the facts as they exist at the time, if you see some 250 pound 6 foot tall redneck brute clear the cab of his pickup charging towards you while you are still calling out the stop, any reasonable man would have to assume he was not running up to you to give you a kiss and thank you for pulling him over.
Same would apply to a little old lady exiting the car screaming and pointing a small hair dryer at you, it’s 2AM you have been on patrol 10 hours, yet to eat or take a break, it’s dark, your tired and you make a traffic stop on a lonely stretch of highway, before you can get out of the car crazy old lady roars out of the car pointing this black object at with both hands in a manor any half intelligent person would associate with holding a gun while firing.
You shoot, killing her, finding out later she only held a small compact hair dryer.
In 1998 an Ohio State Trooper shot and killed a man who exited his car quickly and began reaching to his right side under his jacket drawing an object out moving as if he was bringing it to bear on the Trooper.
The object was a cellphone, the man died at the scene from multiple gunshots as well as his young daughter who was sitting in the rear seat, when a round entered the back glass and struck her in the head.
Shooting was ruled justified and upheld all the way to the US Supreme Court.
A small framed Female Dallas PD officer shot and killed an unarmed football player after he nutted up on a traffic stop, stating he was going to kill the officer then charging her.
The man was well over 200 pounds and in excellent shape the officer was about 505 and 100 pounds soaking wet.
Ruled justified.
A Florida State Trooper shot and killed two men who exited their on a traffic stop after being told to remain in the vehicle many times, both men got out stood still for a few seconds clearly sizing up the officer and communicating back and forth over the car, Trooper calls for backup, both began to advance, Trooper yells for them to stop, both go from a walk to a full charge, Trooper emptied his handgun into both killing them at the scene.
Ruled justified.
In Georgia about 12 years ago a small town PD officer pulled over a drunk one night, had him out of the vehicle doing SFS on him, the man became physical with the officer and actually slapped the officer then began to run to his truck, the officer gave chase grabbed the guy who was trying to grab something out of the truck, the officer could not tell what he was trying to get, officer fell back about 5 steps ordered the man to stop, the man looked back at him, yelled something unintelligible on the film, then began moving as if he was trying to reach for something, officer shot him, killing him.
The investigation concluded the man had grabbed a seat belt inside the truck and was attempting to buckle it back together.
Ruled justified, officer was in reasonable fear of his life due to the unknown threat which may have been hidden from view inside the truck, the officer was anticipating the man to produce a gun or other weapon, based on his training and knowledge of stops and the extremely unusual actions of the suspect.
There are over 63,000 cases listed on the West Law Server dating back over 80 years involving deadly force against unarmed attackers, now not all of these resulted in death, but the level of force used met the threshold of deadly force.
My order of preservations goes like this,
My life/well being
My partner’s life/well being
My paycheck
My partner’s paycheck
Your (the public) @$$
Sorry it goes that way but again I don’t get paid to fight, my state certification says peace officer not ball buster.
I am currently writing a paper for the Georgia Police Academy on the application of deadly force and it’s justification, which will be submitted to POST for inclusion into the basic Peace Officers Training Curriculum. I plan on expanding this into a full 24 hour lecture in about 2 years once the total basic mandate course is expanded allowing me the time within the state required training hours.
This module will cover both armed and unarmed attackers and will be well founded in current case law as well as GA law as the General Counsel for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation interprets it.
Most of my opinions about deadly force against an unarmed attacker have come from those court rulings and not surprisingly make good sense. The courts tend to agree that in the face of uncertainty or overwhelming odds such as an unarmed attacker who without question poses a substantial threat to your ability to fend off an attack because of size disparity or a perceived ability to fight such as an attempt to employ a martial arts or a display of the same in your presence, which places you in fear of great bodily harm due to your in ability to counter such threats you can use deadly force.
You are either missing or circling deliberately the whole crux of the argument, which was use of force vs. street fighting and the level of force introduced at the beginning was deadly, I began to inject other options into the basis of the argument, while not trying to stray from the original topic.
The gun option
As for using other means that too would depend on the totality of the situation, was this initially a peaceful contact, which began to escalate up the R.A.M. chain or was it full blown charge towards me once the cars come to a stop and his door flies open, he barrels out full bore at me, giving me little to no time to even think about assessing the threat, just reaction.
If you recall from you basic training you should know that action is three to five as fast as reaction even with the most seasoned of gunfighters.
Remember I hope you recall from your police academy days that you are only required by law to act upon the facts as they exist at the time, if you see some 250 pound 6 foot tall redneck brute clear the cab of his pickup charging towards you while you are still calling out the stop, any reasonable man would have to assume he was not running up to you to give you a kiss and thank you for pulling him over.
Same would apply to a little old lady exiting the car screaming and pointing a small hair dryer at you, it’s 2AM you have been on patrol 10 hours, yet to eat or take a break, it’s dark, your tired and you make a traffic stop on a lonely stretch of highway, before you can get out of the car crazy old lady roars out of the car pointing this black object at with both hands in a manor any half intelligent person would associate with holding a gun while firing.
You shoot, killing her, finding out later she only held a small compact hair dryer.
In 1998 an Ohio State Trooper shot and killed a man who exited his car quickly and began reaching to his right side under his jacket drawing an object out moving as if he was bringing it to bear on the Trooper.
The object was a cellphone, the man died at the scene from multiple gunshots as well as his young daughter who was sitting in the rear seat, when a round entered the back glass and struck her in the head.
Shooting was ruled justified and upheld all the way to the US Supreme Court.
A small framed Female Dallas PD officer shot and killed an unarmed football player after he nutted up on a traffic stop, stating he was going to kill the officer then charging her.
The man was well over 200 pounds and in excellent shape the officer was about 505 and 100 pounds soaking wet.
Ruled justified.
A Florida State Trooper shot and killed two men who exited their on a traffic stop after being told to remain in the vehicle many times, both men got out stood still for a few seconds clearly sizing up the officer and communicating back and forth over the car, Trooper calls for backup, both began to advance, Trooper yells for them to stop, both go from a walk to a full charge, Trooper emptied his handgun into both killing them at the scene.
Ruled justified.
In Georgia about 12 years ago a small town PD officer pulled over a drunk one night, had him out of the vehicle doing SFS on him, the man became physical with the officer and actually slapped the officer then began to run to his truck, the officer gave chase grabbed the guy who was trying to grab something out of the truck, the officer could not tell what he was trying to get, officer fell back about 5 steps ordered the man to stop, the man looked back at him, yelled something unintelligible on the film, then began moving as if he was trying to reach for something, officer shot him, killing him.
The investigation concluded the man had grabbed a seat belt inside the truck and was attempting to buckle it back together.
Ruled justified, officer was in reasonable fear of his life due to the unknown threat which may have been hidden from view inside the truck, the officer was anticipating the man to produce a gun or other weapon, based on his training and knowledge of stops and the extremely unusual actions of the suspect.
There are over 63,000 cases listed on the West Law Server dating back over 80 years involving deadly force against unarmed attackers, now not all of these resulted in death, but the level of force used met the threshold of deadly force.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
I'm starting to smell a rat....or at least a bullsh**er....
How many years do you have on the job?
But in December 2004, you had a combined total of 5 years on.
What gives?? You went from having a combined total of 5 and a half combined years on the job over a span of 12 and a half years, to having 8 years on. How'd those three extra years get in there??? I'm not the type to quibble over seniority as long as somone isn't trying to BS me.....
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1460030#post1460030
How many years do you have on the job?
But in December 2004, you had a combined total of 5 years on.
What gives?? You went from having a combined total of 5 and a half combined years on the job over a span of 12 and a half years, to having 8 years on. How'd those three extra years get in there??? I'm not the type to quibble over seniority as long as somone isn't trying to BS me.....
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1460030#post1460030
Blind Tree Frog
New member
deleted
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Frank I’ll be as polite as I can from this point on or just short with you…
Blanket statements like smelling a rat wins no points in any form of a debate, infact it gives away your weaknesses.
I spent 3 years working in the jail, most cops don’t consider that as being “in” LE even though I was sworn and certified at the time.
5+3=8
When ones augment is faulty or flawed the one putting forth that argument tends to attack his/her opponent, which is what you seem to be bent on doing.
Blanket statements like smelling a rat wins no points in any form of a debate, infact it gives away your weaknesses.
I spent 3 years working in the jail, most cops don’t consider that as being “in” LE even though I was sworn and certified at the time.
5+3=8
When ones augment is faulty or flawed the one putting forth that argument tends to attack his/her opponent, which is what you seem to be bent on doing.
Still waiting on Frank to describe the proper procedure for scenarios like this, instead of picking apart each post in what seems like a cross examination in an attempt to discredit certain members. Nobody is on trial here Frank, please just tell us what steps we should take in these given circumstances from your supreme LEO perspective.
jburtonpdx
New member
FrankDrebin
I hope you are still working as a LEO, if not, please come work in my town! If you have moved on from LEO, I hope you at least participate in your states LE academy and pass on your wisdom. We need thousands more like you.
I hope that if I am stopped by a LEO on the worst day of my life - the one were I get fired, my wife leaves me, I find out I am bankrupt, and my dogs have run away - that it is Frank or a Frank trained LEO that stops me, if it is Jhands or somebody like him I will probably be killed....Even though I have never actually hurt anybody in my adult life. (I have a tendancy to be verbally argumentative, am a big guy at about 260lbs and a weightlifter/martial arts student, and a very emotional person)
As far as both scenarios that originated the thread. Same answer for both, if I believed that I or my family is in imminent danger of death or severe bodily harm I am going to use any and all means to stop the threat as quickly as possible. Civil and criminal charges be damned at that point. My family will be protected.
Somebody crazy enough to break into my house after hearing my booming voice shouting "I have a gun and fear for my life, if you come through that door I will shoot you" is a threat and will be shot. The castle rule applies here I believe that I dont have a duty to retreat in my own home. That is not to say that if it was safe to retreat and I could safely get through the situation without killing somebody, well I would always choose not to take a life if I dont have to... We do have our plan for home defense and have practiced it. Honestly now though I dont know if things would work that way at all. As I heard one guy say, "Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth".
As far as the BG making a beeline for me or my family members. Totaly situational. First choice is retreat, I could pick up both my kids and run like hell if I had to. My wife also studies fighting - she is 6'3" and placed at least 3rd in every tournement she has fought in, grew up in a large family (fighting all the time), was the kid in school that beat up the bullies... I would probably have to convince her to retreat instead of breaking the guys skull on the pavement...
I hope you are still working as a LEO, if not, please come work in my town! If you have moved on from LEO, I hope you at least participate in your states LE academy and pass on your wisdom. We need thousands more like you.
I hope that if I am stopped by a LEO on the worst day of my life - the one were I get fired, my wife leaves me, I find out I am bankrupt, and my dogs have run away - that it is Frank or a Frank trained LEO that stops me, if it is Jhands or somebody like him I will probably be killed....Even though I have never actually hurt anybody in my adult life. (I have a tendancy to be verbally argumentative, am a big guy at about 260lbs and a weightlifter/martial arts student, and a very emotional person)
As far as both scenarios that originated the thread. Same answer for both, if I believed that I or my family is in imminent danger of death or severe bodily harm I am going to use any and all means to stop the threat as quickly as possible. Civil and criminal charges be damned at that point. My family will be protected.
Somebody crazy enough to break into my house after hearing my booming voice shouting "I have a gun and fear for my life, if you come through that door I will shoot you" is a threat and will be shot. The castle rule applies here I believe that I dont have a duty to retreat in my own home. That is not to say that if it was safe to retreat and I could safely get through the situation without killing somebody, well I would always choose not to take a life if I dont have to... We do have our plan for home defense and have practiced it. Honestly now though I dont know if things would work that way at all. As I heard one guy say, "Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth".
As far as the BG making a beeline for me or my family members. Totaly situational. First choice is retreat, I could pick up both my kids and run like hell if I had to. My wife also studies fighting - she is 6'3" and placed at least 3rd in every tournement she has fought in, grew up in a large family (fighting all the time), was the kid in school that beat up the bullies... I would probably have to convince her to retreat instead of breaking the guys skull on the pavement...
FrankDrebin
Moderator
There really is no PROPER procedure in the common sense of the word. There is what you can legally justify, and what you consider morally right or wrong. Like I said before, if I'd shot every person I could have legally justified shooting, I'd have killed a lot of people that I'm glad I didn't kill in retrospect.
First I would call the police to make sure he's not the police. If he broke down the door while I was on the phone and I wasn't convinced he was the police when he came through, I'd probably shoot him if I was in fear for my life or my kids' lives. That way you're being recorded as you take a reasonable step to try to "let the police handle it" and also recorded as the guy breaks down the door, and as you tell him to stop, and then shoot him if you have to. Before he broke it down, I'd try to figure out WHY he wanted to break it down. Am I a drug dealer and he's another drug dealer who is trying to rob me? Is he my pissed-off neighbor because he thinks I'm banging his wife? Is he the father of a young girl who thinks she's hiding out at my house after running away from home? Is it a straight up robbery?
First I'd be watching his hands, second pull my gun out and keep it behind my leg if I wasn't sure it was a robbery. If I thought he was armed and going to rob me I'd keep my gun at waist level tucked into my waist, pointed at him and tell him I was the police and tell him to keep his hands in the open. If it was some guy I just pissed off at the bar because I was looking at his woman, I probably wouldn't pull my gun right away, if at all. I can't think of a situation I've heard of in my experience where an unarmed or armed robber would continue after seeing the gun and being warned. It's usually not like TV where they say "You ain't got the GUTS to shoot me," and then look all surprised when they get shot. If someone does that they're likely a mental. It all depends what I reasonably think their motive is. If they keep walking and won't stop, I just might walk the other way! If it's armed robbery, he's a lot more likely to get shot than if it was just a road rage incident and I have no reason to think the guy is armed. I'm not going to kill someone just because I'm afraid of getting my ass kicked. However, if you're scared, pull your gun. If you're afraid of being seriously injured or robbed, the last thing on your mind should be being charged with a "brandishing" misdemeanor. Unfortunately, it all comes down to your judgement. There is no "magic formula". We're all adults and have the ability to reason. Your ability to reason can save your life, your wallet or your car, or send you right to prison. If you can't reason well, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun.
So if someone gave you that kind of story on the street, you wouldn't be suspicious? Forgive me if I was wrong, but 6 months ago, you explained how you had 5 years of combined law enforcement experience, now you have a different standard of what constitutes law enforcement experience. You just sound do me like you're rather inexperienced, because in any big city, with your standard of deadly force, as posted in this thread, you'd have killed a dozen people by now. Also, you seem to be bent on justifying the minimum level of shooting someone instead of how to NOT have to shoot someone. You initally NEVER mentioned any kind of less lethal alternative, but went right into this:
Your attitude seems to be "Hey, I'm justified in shooting this guy, so I'm GOING to shoot him because officer X, in people vs. Y did it." Not "I'm justified in shooting this guy because I'm afraid he's going to kill me or hurt me real bad even though I have a gun, taser, OC spray, fists, flashlight, training in martial arts, etc..."
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Jsandi, I agree! While I was a LEO that was pretty much my attitude. I hated having to go to work everyday knowing there probably would be a physical confrontation before my shift ended. So I moved on. Two years later my partner took an @$$ beating from 3 BG's, and it damn near killed him.
I think the lines have been pretty much drawn on this thread. The problem is no one really knows how they are going to handle violence until it happens. Putting up senarios doesn't mean squat because we are all different, and we will react differently.
I remember stopping a car one night. They driver got out, and started back towards me. I remember, I pointed my finger at him, and ordered him back in the vehicle. I was lucky, he obeyed! And to be honest in most cases as described in this thread, I always was ready to clear leather.
One thing I hate about today's LEO's, most have chips even with us former LEO's. The last time I spoke with a LEO was regarding my granddaughter who had been just been injured by a hit and run driver. When I told him I was a former LEO his reply was, Yeah, what kind of a cop were you! I hear this too many times. All of us have to earn respect, including those who currently serve.
Peace!