Why do people always say......

I would still do the same exact thing. Y'all can run around dialing numbers while a maniac tears his way into your castle, your belongings, and your wife if you want to; I'm showing him that there are easier targets to be had. In that situation, 99 times out of 100, he will turn and flee, never to be heard of again. Those are damn nice odds, and they're the ones I'd be going with.
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On Scenerio #1, I'm not saying not to use lethal force. I am saying not to tip your hand until you must. Doing otherwise can open up a whole realm of possibilities. Yes, chances are he will leave. If he is intent on doing you harm, he will find a better time and place, when you are less prepared. If he is on drugs or drunk, he may very well continue the assault on your door anyway. If he is an enraged relative, or suicidal, he may continue the assault on your door. Someone who is assaulting your door with force is not behaving rationally, they are enraged. Showing them a firearm is not likely to suddenly make them rational. If anything it will escalate the rage.

If he breaks down your door and enters, you are justified in dropping him on the spot where I live. You will likely not even be taken in for questioning. You will loose your gun to the evidence locker until the case is closed. You will have to clean up a bit.

If you show your gun and he leaves and calls the police, giving them a description of your gun and yourself as well as your address and saying he mistakenly approached your home and you brandished a weapon on your front porch, you are going to be doing some explaining. You may go to court on false charges. You may loose your weapon and your right to carry. It's his word against yours, and he made the complaint. Don't expect him to be truthful or a gentleman about it.

Every situation is different, but I cannot think of a generalized scenerio where tipping your hand would be in your favor.
 
Drawing and Justifications

I agree with most of the logic in these posts: Don't draw your weapon until your life is in immediate danger. Otherwise you could be in worse trouble. There are many options avaliable to you - if they are practical - take them instead - retreat, evasion, HTH combat. But if you must....

Here are my inputs on the 2 scenarios:

1) At home vs BG - Well first I wouldn't look through window, I would turn off my interior lighting and turn off exterior lighting and try my peephole. If he threatens, I will retreat from doorway take cover, and tell him I am armed. Never breaking eye contact with entry points. (At this point weapon would be drawn and pointed at doorway. No shooting through the door or anything like that - too dangerous. Would call 911 if phone was next to me. But if I had to go to next room to get it, no way. Keep entranceway(s) covered.

Turning interior lights off definitely gives you an advantage over BG as you know the layout of your home. Also as the outside light is on, he would be perfectly silhouetted target as he broke in.

2) Parking lot vs BG - No way I draw here. I would stop, look at avenues of retreat, and / or additional threats (peripheral vision) , and not break eye contact with BG. Verbal warning if he continues to approach. Act accordingly as scenario unfolds. No way do I draw unless he has a visible weapon.

But if I were to draw - then I would use weapon (unless he made a hasty retreat as the weapon was being displayed.)
 
Brandishing can cause alot of problems. If I have to draw it is coming up to the target with a high probablity of me planning to fire upon a good sight picture. IMMEDIATE compliance might prevent that, but for me, the point at which I am drawing, my life or a loved one's life is in danger.
 
I too have wondered about the statement "If I draw my gun, I'm going to use it." I know that there will be situations where lethal force is justified but that for me would be a last resort.

Secnatio 1: If someone is pounding on the door, I will announce in a loud voice that I have a gun and will shoot him if he comes in. This will stop any opportunistic criminals and send them packing. If the person does not stop the attack, then there will be no choice but to shoot him if he comes in. I normally have my cell phone on me so I will be calling the cops and moving towards cover after I make the announcement. As for retrieving a more powerful weapon, I think this is a bad idea since the intruder may already have forced his way into your house by the time you retrieve it and may be on top of you before you have time to get it into play.

Scenario 2: This is a little more questionable since your scenario is somewhat vague. If you are in a bad area and there are few people around, then he may be targeting you. If not then you are illegally brandishing and potentially escalating the situation. I would give the guy a good look in the eye as someone else mentioned and "adjust" my gun so he knows I am armed. If it appears he is holding a weapon when he is approaching and is within 20 feet I will draw and keep the gun at the low ready position.

I am not eager to shoot anyone but I will shoot if I have to. If the bad guy runs away or backs down, then the situation has been resolved. It is not my right to remove these scumbags from the planet, as much as I would like to. I imagine my life would also be much more complicated if I didn't have to go through the whole explanation of why I shot the person to the police and the whole civil suit from the scumbag's family.

I have also given much though to less than lethal responses such as pepper spray. There have been quite a few threads lately and the stuff from Fox Labs seems to be the best stuff out there. I have also given serious thought to installing a Lasermax spring guide replacement laser that may cause a bad guy to seriously reconsider his actions. What are your thoughts on this?
 
I"ve had men at gun point 4x. Only once were cops called

and then he lost the debate, anyway. You billy bad ones can take on men with your bare hands( and maybe get your own gun used on you). I"ll draw the gun, and then if he's so crazy-desperate to make me fire, so be it.
 
Someone leads me to believe they are trained to fight, martial arts, and ultimate fighting types I’m blasting.

I am not paid to fight nor am I trained to fight beyond minimal to moderate resistance we usually encounter when arresting someone who just wants to get away from us and not go to jail.
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it must be nice to be a cop and not have to justify your actions like us peasants would.
do what you feel you need to do. unload on people that walk towards you muttering 'i know kung fu'. what do i care?
 
Spaceman,

It's not that he thinks he's better than you and me - "us peasants" as you say. It's just that cops ARE in an authoritative position in our society and in that vein, they deserve to be (are REQUIRED to be!) obeyed when told to "STOP!". Why is it that someone who punches a cop is in MUCH deeper doo-doo than someone who punches a gumball repairman? Why is it that killing a police dog is often the SAME as killing a human officer? Because they are better than us? No, it's because they represent the law of the land and automatically deserve respect.
 
Why is it that killing a police dog is often the SAME as killing a human officer?
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Do you have a state statute to back that one up???

I never thought I was very tough, but I guess I've always been tough enough to take someone into custody without blowing their brains out because they tried to punch me in the nose and just happened to be bigger than me.
 
It's not as stiff as murder but in GA it's still a felony.


OCGA 16-11-107(b) Any person who knowingly and intentionally destroys or causes serious or debilitating physical injury to a police dog or police horse, knowing said dog to be a police dog or said horse to be a police horse, shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, or a fine not to exceed $10,000.00, or both. This subsection shall not apply to the destruction of a police dog or police horse for humane purposes.
 
Frank, nope I don't have the statute on that one. I was talking to an officer at my place of business once, and he said that people have been triedin court for murdering an officer after they had killed a police dog. I was relying too much on his statements, I suppose. Sorry for the (apparently) false info......the point of the post is still intact, though, even if it only qualifies as a non-murder felony. :)
 
I try to keep the bullship to a minimum on these websites (and life in general), and I wondered at the time if I was going too far out on a limb in saying what I said. I just didn't know that Franky D was waiting there with a hacksaw! :D

I've now officially been "Drebin'd".
 
Say you go to a family trouble run where the man is going to be arrested for domestic violence, and he's putting on a show so he doesn't look like a punk in front of his woman and kids. "Nobody's taking ME to jail! I'll kick your ass! You're just gonna have to KILL me!" Then he starts walking toward the door that you're standing in front of and doesn't stop when you tell him to.

I've been to dozens of calls like that and ended up fighting with men and women who were a lot bigger than me, and never had to kill any of them. Are you just going to shoot the unarmed guy a few times in the chest in front of his woman and kids and then tell the newspapers it was a "gunfight" because you brought a gun?
 
Time changes, and the rules change with them. When I was a LEO many, many, moons ago, I was trained in this manner; Never pull your service weapon unless you intend to use it, and when you do shoot to kill!

As a retired old fart my rule today is; Never pull your gun unless you, (your family / friends) are threatened with deadly force. Be calm, be cool!

As a realist; you can never be sure what you will do in a deadly force situation. If you make a mistake; there by the grace of God, go I!
 
No, I don't suppose I would.

But what COULD you do? If there's a substantial size discrepancy with the BG being the big one, what do you do in a situation like that? Mace him?

How many punches to the face do you have to absorb before you DO shoot the guy? Or, if he's winning, do you just let him pummel you unconscious, take your gun, and run? The whole topic got started by talking about a large perp saying he's gonna kick the cops ass and not stopping when told to stop, and a smaller officer who would be obviously outmatched in a fist fight. I can still see shooting the guy.
 
What happens if some guy who is bigger than you sucker punches you at a bar fight? You're just going to shoot him in the chest?
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I have to ask a few question to this. What role is he playing? Is he a patron of the bar on his night off? Is he in LEO attire on official police buisiness?
Do LEO's routinely jump into the middle of bar fights to break them up, or does the whole place get O.C.'d beforehand?
I am not a LEO so please tell me what the proper procedure is in responding to a bar fight. If I were a LEO I don't think it would be very smart to go charging blindly into something like that without a plan. Heck I would EXPECT to get sucker punched.

I believe that each scenario is unique. The mind is able to process alot of information quickly in rapidly developing situations. Having said that it would seem that you will definitly know when it is time to use your weapon. Some situations develop so fast that you just doen't have time to attempt multiple forms of threat suppression so you would instictively prepare for the use of deadly force.
 
BTW, I'm not a big guy either and if I were a LEO, and a big mo'fo' was threatening me with bodily harm, advancing on me, I would have no choice but to assume he thinks he's going to give me a beat down and take my weapon and then possibly use it against me in his getaway. WHat should I do? Which one would you do?
1) run away
2) run around in circles and hope I'm quicker than he is until backup arrives
3) make a bee-line for the squad car while spraying OC over my shoulder.
4) say my prayers and prepare to meet my maker.
5) Draw down on him and order him to stop, if he doesn't than I assume he intends beat me and use my weapon against me so I fire at him.

We had a scenario in here where a female officer responded to a call about a man with a knife. When she arrived on the scene it was a foreign guy with a box cutter. He started toward her so she commanded him to drop the knife. He did not so she drew on him. as he advanced toward her she walked backward. She had her shoulder mounted radio mic keyd the whole time so all of her commands and the whole scenario could be heard by dispatch and fellow officers in route. To make a long story short she had to use deadly force. The fact that she held her mic button is what saved her from lawsuits etc, I think.
 
Here is the problem with many LEO’s today and a good number of the old hands from yester-year.

They all have this billy-bad-@$$ mentality which leads them to believe they are required to stand between the world and all that’s evil, they fully believe they must go toe to toe with each and every bad guy who bows up, talks back or runs from them and the good old fashion @$$ whooping was the order of the day.

Speaking as a LEO with experience spanning a good part of a decade I can stand here and say with confidence that nothing could be farther from the truth.

You will end up in a civil lawsuit quicker for physically going toe to toe with an opponent today than you will if you use OC, a baton or tazer or end up shooting a person due to the afore mentioned variables.

Why you may ask…

When all is said and done nowhere in any SOP does it state you can use in any manor as a weapon your body, except in exigent circumstances, in which case you would be justified using the bumper off a 1940 Ford coupe if you had it.

Punching to the face is considered excessive and is a no-no in any department, you cannot use your feet but only in a take down, you cannot kick a suspect, you cannot choke a suspect (a supreme no-no) and you cannot use any form of martial arts expect in extreme circumstances and a good example is those cops in Atlanta who were just recently fired for using a type of “ultimate fighting” maneuver to take a person down.

The GBI ruled it violated all APD SOP and was not approved in any GA approved training curriculum and was far beyond excessive, but yet said the cops would have been justified in using the ASP baton which all of the carried at the time but did not use.

Our SOP outlines the UOFC, which starts with officer presence and verbal commands, then moves into soft open hands, OC and hard open hands and pressure points, then impact weapons and then deadly force.

The only strikes we were taught in the academy and the only ones approved to be taught in any course in GA is/were open palm strikes and strikes to various pressure points.

We were taught and our SOP clearly outlines that if those don’t work you go to an impact weapon or higher.

The FBI does not teach any form of hand-to-hand beyond open strikes, take downs and grappling, if it goes beyond that they are to move to some form of a weapon.

If you go to court and you physically pounded a person in a fist fight how is that going to look to a jury, or one better how would it look to a passerby, seeing you do your best Rocky Balboa impression on the street corner over, deploying an impact weapon, which everyone already accepts as a standard piece of cop equipment, and you are giving verbal commands then ending the altercation with one or two well placed strikes, over spending 2 minutes exchanging face and upper body punches with some guy?

This whole idea that we are required to absorb a given amount of violence just because we are cops is preposterous, maybe 25 years ago, but today we are given more and more tools which are designed to keep us out of the ER and on the job, OC, Tazer, Baton etc…

And ultimately deadly force which can and has been used justifiably against unarmed attackers.
 
Speaking as a LEO with experience spanning a good part of a decade I can stand here and say with confidence that nothing could be farther from the truth.
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How many years do you have on the job?

Here is the problem with many LEO’s today and a good number of the old hands from yester-year.

They all have this billy-bad-@$$ mentality which leads them to believe they are required to stand between the world and all that’s evil, they fully believe they must go toe to toe with each and every bad guy who bows up, talks back or runs from them and the good old fashion @$$ whooping was the order of the day.
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I didn't avoid killing people that I didn't have to kill because I thought I was a bad ass, I did it because it was the right thing to do.

This whole idea that we are required to absorb a given amount of violence just because we are cops is preposterous, maybe 25 years ago, but today we are given more and more tools which are designed to keep us out of the ER and on the job, OC, Tazer, Baton etc…
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So why didn't you use your more and more tools here:

Imagine if I stop a car one night, way out in the boonies miles from any sign of backup and immediately this huge guy gets out of the car squares off on me and announces he’s going to kick my @$$, he’s 6 foot tall and weighs in at around the 250 mark.

Guess what, he’s getting one chance to stop his closure towards me then its’ straight to deadly force.

Now if someone say 5 10 about 180 pounds but clearly in good physical shape does the same, guess what…

Same ending.
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Given your choice of weapons here, when WOULD you use your less lethal tools???? When someone refuses to pass the ketchup? And what does the "out in the boonies with no sign of backup for miles" have to do with anything? If you knew that back-up was 1 minute away, would you fight with the guy for one minute? You could take care of the guy if back-up was 1 minute away, but not 10? And if he first got out of the car, then "squared off" at you, you wouldn't have time to do anything other than shoot him after he started walking toward you after getting out of the car and after squaring off? If it's straight to deadly force for a guy who is 5'8 and in good shape, who do you use your taser and OC and baton on?????
 
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