WHY DO GUYS KNOCK THE 1911 AS BEING UNRELIABLE "OUT OF THE BOX"?

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Hi Rik,
I agree that a small sample doesn't prove the rule. However, few people own 15 -20 1911's. I don't, but through the years I have seen a lot of GI guns and they were all reliable with the GI ammo furnished. In the last 5 years I have personal experience with 7 commercial guns by Colt, SA, and Kimber. I bought the Colt for my son in law. He has shot it probably less than 300 times. He has said that it has never malfunctioned. The other six guns all had to be sent back for reliability work. I maintain that this is some evidence that factory guns can not be depended upon to be reliable OTB. I even read about the semi custom guns giving some trouble. I believe those who say their guns never give trouble. However, that doesn't prove the point either. I don't bet. However, if I did I would be willing to bet $1000 that if we took a sample of at least 25 each of Glocks, Berettas, Sigs, HKs, and factory 1911s that the 1911 factory guns would have the lowest reliability out of the box. I have some "observation" experience with Glocks as one of my best friends is a Chief of Police at a University. He has issued Glocks for about 5 years. They are extremely reliable. As we consider SA there is a lot of instruction as to how to clear malfunctions. The 1911 is my favorite gun. I currently have a custom on order from Brian and a LW SS Compact on order from SA. I expect to have to send the SA back at least once. I hope I am wrong. I don't expect to send the Bilby gun back. That is a different situation. I would be very interested to hear what Brian, Steve, Tim, Dane and others with EXTENSIVE experience would say. I wonder what the % of guns that are reliable OTB would be. Maybe we could have a survey of factory guns here. I have no axe to grind. My Glock 26 is absolutely reliable as is my Russian Mak. One other thing. Many make excuses for their gun. It is the ammo or the magazine or limp wristing, etc. I realize that magazines are a big problem. However, if the gun doesn't work with any good magazine and if it doesn't work with the supplied magazine, and if it doesn't work with any standard load by the major man. then it isn't reliable. Regards, Jerry

[This message has been edited by JerryM (edited August 13, 2000).]
 
I haven't shot .45's for years and years. I haven't owned 2 dozen different ones. I never sent any away to an expensive pistolsmith for a $2000 custom package. I can tell you that I have owned exactly 3 1911's - all NIB - a Colt Series 70, a Kimber Classic Custom, and a Coonan .357 - and NONE, despite being very high quality guns, functioned reliably out of the box. The two .45's wouldn't even work with factory ball (which I'll never understand). So at what point was I being "ignorant"? It's experiences like these that turn people off of the 1911. My Kahr and 5906 OTOH have been flawless. In fact, every 9mm I've ever owned has been this way...hmmm might be something to this. So how come I'm too stupid to make my 1911's work?
 
Jerry, it's hard for me to say why someone's guns had problems...I have an acquaintance that DID a study on reliability. He found that almost every auto that he surveyed had some malfunctions and the vast majority of these were due to bad magazines, followed by bad ammo followed by user error. (I believe that was the order---I will have to call him up and ask him).
Me, I only use Wilson mags in my 1911s and I only use quality factory ammo, which removes most potential problems right there. I don't pretend to be the last word on the matter, but I can only go from what I experience firsthand so far as what I believe about handgun reliability. And I have found 1911s that I and friends of mine have owned and fired to generally be as reliable as any other major handgun design.
 
Oh by the way, I finally solved the .45 dilemma - after owning 6 unreliable .45's, I finally have one now that works flawlessly.
A 625 Mountain Gun.
My moonclips never mis-feed, and I've never had a loss of spring tension or stubborn follower (lol). I've never even had to "ramp and throat it" or whatever (hysterical giggling).
Sorry couldn't resist.
 
I have owned my share of 1911's and I can tell you its no myth that many 1911 are not reliable out of the box unless your talking using ball ammo only. About half of the 1911's I have owned have had life trusting reliability and none of them were colts.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
I admit that I shoot very little factory ammunition. Here is the way I treat my reloads. I choose the ammunition I want to use. If that is Speer GD I measure the oal and velocity. I duplicate both and then I check each individual round by dropping it in either a min. chamber gage or a max.cartridge gage. I check the rim for roughness and use a stone to smooth any rough spots. At that point I consider that if a gun will not function with those reloads it won't function with the same factory rounds. I do use a couple hundred factory rounds in the beginning. A gun that will not run with such reloads is of little use to me. I use Wilson, Colt, Shooting Star, MegGar, and Mag Pac magazines. I have not found my guns to be so mag sensitive that only one brand of mag works. I have had to send both Wilson and Mag Pac mags back. I never use 10 round magazines. Again I say that my old GI 1911 is totally reliable with all ammunition I put in it as are my Glock and Mak. Why shouldn't a 1911 be as good? Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
This is really going to get the flame wars going...


WHO CARES!!!

If you have a 1911 and the bloody thing works great, cool, woderful, fantastic, I'm really, really happy for you. You truly one to be admired and worshipped.

To utilize this great forum to argue, "well mine works and so does all my friends", or "mine never worked and neither have any of my friends", is simply not going to get us anywhere.

The 1911 is a great design and has been tweaked, and modified more than any other design probably. The 1911's I have fired have all been ok, with no major failures. I have had the same performance from my 226, GP-100, K9, and my little Bersa Series 95.

HEAR THAT MY BERSA IS AS RELIABLE AS A 1911!!! Holy cow, could that be possible.

I think we have worn this subject raw...it is no more valuable than me starting a thread saying, "Why do people think the Beretta 92 is more reliable than my SIG 226?"

It simply doesn't matter...Anybody who says a 1911 (or any other well made firearm) isn't reliable at all should be educated to find out otherwise...SIMPLE!!!


FLAME AWAY!!! -------->Run, Forest, Run----->




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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
I don't say it a lot, but when I do, it is not out of ignorance, but rather experience. I have owned a number of quality 1911's from AMT to Springfield to Colt to totally custom and they have all been pure jammamatics right out of the box, and even with help and Wilson mags never became totally reliable with hardball ammo even (god forbid I try to run hollowpoints through them). I can't count how many friends have had the same problem.

It is not ignorance, it is experience. Maybe it depends on what you define as "reliability". Some people are known to make a lot fo excuses when their gun jams, and they blame this or that, the ammo, or they need a new doohickie on it to make it better blah blah blah.
To me, reliability means it feeds every kind of ammo I put through it and it NEVER jams. If one of my carry guns jams ONE TIME, EVER, then I get nervous about carrying it. Because, if it jams at the range, I have news to you, it is many times more likely to jam under the wild conditions of battle.

I have never seen a 1911 that is what I call "reliable", particularly with hollowpoint ammo. If they exist and I have not seen it, it is NOT because I have not tried to find one and spent a lot of money searching.
My carry gun (I will refrain from saying what it is, in order to avoid a war) is %100 reliable, right out of the box, has never missed a beat with any mag or in any situation or with any hollowpoint etc. I STILL am aware of the fact that it may jam under combat conditions because they are different from range conditions, but nonetheless, if the gun jammed, FTF or misfed ever, even once, in the last 10,000 rounds through it, I would be nervous about carrying it.
If you have a 1911 that feeds like that but still shoots accuratly and nice, then hand on to it because you are lucky and I envy you, especially if you spent less than $1000 on it.

[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited August 13, 2000).]
 
Sorry to hear about your bad luck Red Bull...huh, maybe I have appropriated all your luck because I can't seem to find a 1911 that jams like that. Just to ease your mind about excuses, the first thing I do when I get a handgun I plan to use defensively is to run 200 rounds of FMJ through it. If it jams, I run another 200 rounds until it stops jamming or it becomes clear that it WON'T stop jamming. After it passes that test, I run about a hundred rounds of various brands of JHPs through it, and if it feeds them I run 200 rounds of the defensive load I plan to use in it.
Yes, that's expensive, but I don't do it to ALL my guns, just the ones I expect to carry or use for home defense. And I usually do it over a period of a month to spread the cost out.
Of the five Kimbers I've had, I put three of them through that test, and all three passed. Of the other two Kimbers, one wasn't going to be used defensively any time soon so I only ran the 200 FMJ and 100 JHP through it. The other I only had for a couple weeks since I decided I didn't like the kick (it was an alloy frame Pro Elite) so I only ran the first 200 rounds plus a couple mags of JHP through it. None of these guns FTFed in any way.
Of the various Colts I have had, I have put four through this test and they all passed without a jam. The other Colts didn't fail to feed either, but I only put FMJ through them.
I have put two Springfield Milspecs through the test and they passed also with no jams.
I will say that the people I know that HAVE had jams through their 1911s have had them mostly with lead semi-wadcutters, which I don't use. I have only put about 50 wadcutters through my Kimber Gold Match (it didn't jam on them however) once when someone else wanted to shoot it and supplied their own reloaded ammo.
So there are no "excuses" involved when I say that the 1911s I have had don't jam. I am not babying them other than the avoidance of reloads and lead wadcutters, and using good quality magazines.
 
I started in the pursuit of "Boy's toys" in the '80's and that's when I couldn't buy a 100% reliable 1911 type to SMS! Maybe it was just my luck, but I always had to have the ramp polished and throated, etc..to get them to be reliable. When I finally found a Colt's OM that was a keeper, I had a 'smith that was reputed to be one of the best (in the area), I had him put in two of the "King's Gunworks" recoil reducer(one in each of my Colt's OM's--one carry,one back up) rather than have the King's people put it in....Short version---he screwed it up big time. Cost me a bundle to get it back to being safe and then I sold both of them...weren't reliable after all the modifications.
 
Hi, guys,

IMHO, the only pistols that can properly be called Model 1911s or Model 1911A1s are those made by/for the U.S. Army. All others are clones or "M1911 types". The military pistols built up an enviable reputation for durability and reliability, albeit with "GI" ammunition.

Today, at least a dozen makers are building pistols on the basic 1911 design, some with "extreme machine" gadgetry. Some are good. Some are worthless junk. But none are Model 1911s or Model 1911A1S. Who is responsible? Well, we are.

We expect the maker to keep prices low by having parts made in low-pay foreign countries with no oversight and no tradition of quality. We demand low prices and so we get parts made from poor quality castings and second rate material. We complain about the use of plastic, but don't know enough to complain about other cheap production methods until something designed to be made from forged steel breaks because it was made of cheap moldings or cast aluminum.

Even Colt, without Army inspectors watching them, has let quality control slip from time to time. Some of the others seem never to have heard of it.

Further, we expect a pistol to work with any ammunition and with any magazine. We ignore the fact that almost all autoloaders were designed to work with one ammunition type. Instead, we expect perfect functioning with the weirdest shaped bullets, and any powder charge.

We buy the cheapest possible ammunition or turn out the sloppiest reloads and
expect the pistol to function. We buy the cheapest, tinniest magazines on the market and expect them to hold up as well as properly made and properly heat treated magazines.

We buy junk ammunition for practice and keep "the good stuff" for street carry, never thinking to find out if "the good stuff" will even work in the gun. If we are unlucky, we find out the hard way that it won't.

There are a lot of problems with guns that sort of look like Model 1911s. Not many of them are problems with Model 1911s or Model 1911A1s.

Jim
 
"I don't say it a lot, but when I do, it is not out of ignorance, but rather experience. I have owned a number of quality 1911's from AMT to Springfield to Colt to totally custom and they have all been pure jammamatics right out of the box, and even with help and Wilson mags never became totally reliable with hardball ammo even (god forbid I try to run hollowpoints through them). I can't count how many friends have had the same problem."

AMT did it for me. One .45ACP, one 10mm. Both would not feed a full mag (that came witht he guns) unhindered out of the box.

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- Ron V.
 
From the looks of things here, we seem to have quite a few limp wristers on the board ;). Just kidding!

My only FTFs with 1911s have been due to me trying to economize (read cheap) with gunshow and off brand magazines years ago (I have since learned my lesson). And most of these malfunctions were failure to hold the slide open after firing the last round. But pop in a good mag and the problems disappear. I wouldn't own a 1911 type pistol if I found it to be undependable. I'm silly that way. If it isn't functional, IT'S GONE!


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Just one of the Good Guys
 
I too have had 1911 reliability problems. It appears from reading the other posts where there is smoke there's fire. Nothing feels as good to me as a 1911, but they can be finicky. I envy you guys that never have any trouble with them.

There is also truth in the comment that people tend to make excuses when their guns jam. It is either %100 reliable or it is unreliable.

My Browning HP and Kahr 9s have opened my eyes to what true semiauto reliability is. They havn't missed a beat. Unfortunately neither is as ergonomically pleasing as a 1911.
 
>>I wouldn't own a 1911 type pistol if I found it to be undependable. I'm silly that way. If it isn't functional, IT'S GONE!<<

I am the same way. If there is a possibility my life might depend on a gun, it has to be 100% functional. I once had a Smith 4506 that wouldn't feed any +P ammo. It would feed normal velocity 45 ammo fine, but not +P. I COULD have just loaded it with normal velocity ammo for defense (I prefer normal speed 45 ammo anyway) but if it jammed on +P ammo, who knew what else could have been wrong with it? Or if that were a symptom of a larger problem? So it got traded.
 
Rik Writer;

I envy you. I, too have an affinity for "Old Slabsides" and have owned, well, enough of 'em that I'm probably forgetting one. Let's see...

First (and long ago) was a Series 70 Commander in matte nickel. GI mags it came with were, indeed, crap. Fresh Colt mags cleared most everything up. Very reliable with ball. Fed rounded ogive JHP's such as the Silvertip with good (for the era) reliability after a ramp & throat from a well respected gunsmith, but was possessed by demons that refused to let it feed more aggressively shaped Speer or Hornady HP's. Next was a Springfield G.I. surplus gun. Ball only. A few years later, a new Springfield. Out of the box, it was about as good as the breathed-on Commander was post-cleanup, but still choked on flatnosed JHP's. Next, an Auto-Ordinance, another FMJ-only gun that I never bothered to get 'souped-up'. Then a racegun built entirely from parts by probably the best 1911 man in North GA at the time. This was the most feed-reliable 1911 I have ever seen; it'd feed & eject empty cases as fast as you could work the slide. Then came a Colt 1991A1 that worked okay after I shelled out bucks for, you guessed it, yet some more Wilson mags. (If these are required to make the gun function, why aren't they in the box in the first friggin' place?) Last and most recent, my ParaOrd P12.45 was great from day one, having only a few teething problems with MagTech Gold JHP's during the initial 250rd break-in.

Maybe you & your shooting buddies have a statistically unlikely bunch of 1911's, but my experiences seem pretty well echoed up and down this page. I'll tell you what my definition of reliability has become: my P228 never jammed on me in the 8 months I owned and competed with it. My 2nd and 4th G23's have never jammed on me. My H&K P7M8, never. My G33, never. My G29, using the mags that came with the gun, firing JHP's and Ball with weights from 135gr to 200gr, has been 100% jam-free since I pulled it from the tupperware several thousand rounds ago.

I don't want to hear "Break in", or that a manufacturer expects me to buy aftermarket mags to make his product function properly. SIG, Glock, and H&K will let me pull a gun out of the box and shoot any style of bullet from my bone stock gun; they have raised my expextations and the bar for "acceptable quality & reliability". Kimber's trying hard to step up to the plate, I'd like to see the rest of the 1911 makers do likewise.

Like I said. I like 1911s. I just wish I had your luck with them, and so do most 1911 owners I know...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited August 14, 2000).]
 
Hi, Tamara,

I agree fully with you on the "break in" and the cruddy magazines. But I do wonder about your "Springfield GI" pistol. The only gun that fits that description would be the Model 1911 made by the government Springfield Armory in 1914-1915. Springfield Armory, Inc. never made a pistol for the army.

BTW, I use only WWII GI magazines and they are far better than most of the stuff made today. Unfortunately, there is a lot of junk being sold as "GI" that is worthless.

Jim
 
If the 1911 design is so infallable out of the box, why won't my Springfield MilSpec feed Speer Golddot hollowpoints without jamming regularly?

Why won't my best friend's Colt 1991 feed ANY hollow points reliably?

But why will other stock 1911-models do so?

Because each gun is an INDIVIDUAL, subject to individual foibles and failings.

In that sense, a 1911-based gun is absolutely NO different than an automobile. You can have 500 absolutely GREAT Toyotas, and then there's the occasional lemon.

And please don't tell me about how EVERY Toyota ever made is the GREATEST car on the face of the earth, and that they'll last 9.728 trillion miles without needing an oil change or tuneup.

The same best friend had a 1992 Toyota that kept popping head gaskets, the first one three weeks after he drove it off the lot. Six headgaskets and a new head later, he finally took Toyota to arbitration and got a new car from them to replace the lemon.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I guess I'm just naturally a tinkerer. Doesn't matter if it's a car engine or a gun. Showroom stock or NIB, it's just something which is close to okay, but needs proper finishing.

I've owned maybe a dozen 1911A1s and had no notable problems. Most of them got worked over a bit before I really had a chance to find any problem. For instance, I bought a NIB Series 70; I replaced the bushing before I ever shot it. Within a magazine or two of ball ammo, I worked over the trigger. And so on.

I bought a NIB LW Commander. Never a problem, but it got thoroughly modified soon after purchase. I bought a NIB Delta Elite; I replaced the grip safety, did a trigger job and some polishing before I ever shot it. Why? Because it was "NIB"--not yet finished.

If I was into using a Glock or Beretta, I'd learn to do the same sorts of things. Whatever it takes to make it better than NIB. I had a Glock (whichever one it is that shoots the .45ACP) and didn't like the feel. Shot okay, but aesthetics and feel are important...I have a Beretta 92S, mostly because it was cheap and I had a lot of 9mm ammo lying around. Shoots okay, but it sure is bulky and sharp-edged! I'll probably do a bunch of rounding, someday...

FWIW, I've meddled with the feed lips of a 1911 magazine just to show that you can make them feed empty brass. :)

My old IPSC gun would feed anything. HP, SWC, whatever. *Almost* feed empty brass.

But, I like to balance my car engines, since a redline of 7,000 to 9,000 is a lot more fun than "showroom"...

To me, then, worrying about what something will do in NIB condition is a meaningless thing. (I'm just as bad with rifles.)

If anybody out there has one of those horrible old 1911 clunkers and wants out of it real bad, just holler! :)

Y'all have fun,

Art
 
I have always had a thing for triggers that only have one consistent pull.
So, my favortie guns have been, 1911's, then HK P7s, then later Glocks.
I was way into 1911's for many years and so were my friends. I had several of them, just about every brand on the market as well as some custom ones. Some of them I tried to run out of the box and others I tried to get some work on. None of them, ever, was reliable. The rattley loose ones out of the box were not. The custom ones were and are not, and the in-between ones with lots of work were not. Of course, it depends on what you call reliable. Some would feed ball most of the time with an occasional hiccup, but woul never feed hollowpoints %100. Others, even some that I put a lot of money into, would not even feed ball reliably. My very minimum requirement to even begin to call a gun reliable is to get through an average shooting session without a jam. It NEVER happened with any 1911. I bought the wonder mags, I got work done, I tried new parts, I tried smithing and none of them were reliable enough to depend my life upon. But they sure are pretty. Nice to look at, but not to depend upon.
I finally went back to Glock after much money and frustration, and my friend stayed a die hard 1911 guy. He went through the same drill. To keep a long story short, after going through the exact thing I did, with all kinds of $$$ and all forms of 1911's, he is now a Glock fanatic, and the biggest 1911 basher you couldever meet.
Why? Out of ignorance? I don't think so! Try: out of experience and wasting a TON of money and time trying to persue the dream.
1911's are nice hobby guns, but they are not a combat gun that you can depend your life upon. In my many years of shooting, and the combined experience of my friends, I can safely say that.
To each his own. If you want a gun that has aesthetics and feel above combat performance (as the above poster said) then the 1911 is for you. If you really have a 1911 that is reliable, then I truly question by what you call "reliable". I would have to see it myself, with defensive ammo, not ball. For me, the first thing that matters is that you have a gun. The second thing that matters is that it goes "bang" every time you pull the trigger. The third is being able to hit your target. The rest is just icing on teh cake. Glock does all of those the best for me, and not trying to start a Glock vs. 1911 war, I am just saying that me and many other people gave 1911's our best try with tons of money (buy those gunsmiths LOVE 1911's don't they) and our belief that 1911's are not very reliable is not born out of ignorance, but out of a LOT of experience.
 
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