WHY DO GUYS CONCERN THEMSELVES WITH 25YRD ACCURACY?

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45automan

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Hey guys this is a good one huh? I hear it all the time. My gun can shoot 1.5" or 2" inch groups at 25 yards. What is the point here? I just had a friendly disagreement with a buddy of mine on the merits of long range accuracy. I find 25 yards long range work for most handguns. He has a new 1911 that is quite tight. He has broken it in withabout 400 rds of ball ammo. I won't name the maker of his 1911 as i am not bashing it. Anyway when his gun gets dirty at the range he has reliability problems. I have an 82 year old Colt 1911 that NEVER jams. Colt factory mags and ball ammo= 100%. But at 25 yards there are no groups to speak of!! My point is a handgun is of most use at under 15 feet maybe closer. If you are not an LEO and shoot someone that far away you have a lot of explaining to do. If they are 75ft away grab a rifle right?Sure his gun will out shoot mine any day but, at least my gun will shoot! Any opinions here guys?
Thanks ,45automan

Sorry for the rant guys.
 
Most gun fights do occur at 20 feet or less and most only last a couple of rounds however there are those deadly exceptions. One FBI agent I read about had to shoot a rifle armed bad guy at 80 yards with his sig 228 in 9mm he used 8 shots and hit 4 not bad considering the situation he won why because he was cool and calm and a good shot. Some gunfights take lots or rounds. Also more accuracy at 25 yards also translates into being able to shoot smaller targets well like a head shot on a failure to stop or having to shoot at a small part of the bad guys body because thats all you see like his feet when your taking covernear a car shooting under it. My firearms instructor in the academy stated shoot what you see the sXXt will fall down. The person who makes the first noise does not win its the person who hits and hits well first. Do 25 yard groups need to be 1 inch no. But I would not accept a gun that did not shoot at least 4 inches. Handguns are capable of far more accuracy than most shooters believe. I have hit milk jugs at 100 yards with my sig sport and I can hit the same guns at 75 yard with my glocks. Train for the worst, pray for the best and react to what you get.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
I forgot to mention that it does not matter that the threat is far away as long as you percieve a threat to your life and are justified. If the guys shooting at you from 100 yards your justified in shooting civilian or cop. ALso I would love to have a rifle or shotgun with me all the time but thats not realistic. My chief won't let us use rifles and My shotguns only with me if I am forwarned or danger any other time its in the vehicle. Its even harder for CCW holders as most people don't carry a long gun in a vehicle. If your 45 can't shoot at least 4 iches at 25 yards from a rest it would not meet my standards. Others have diferent standards. Here is my list of prioritys.
1. Reliability (100%)
2. Ergonomics (does the gun fit well is it easy to carry concealed if a ccw gun)
3. Practical accuracy (is the gun easy to shoot well)
4. Power (must be at least 9mm +p+ and more is better)
5. Bench rest accuracy
6. Magazine Capacity
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
Automan,

I believe Sigfan has touched on the key issue.

I am an older shooter (almost 55) and my distance eyesight has deteriorated continuously for the last 25+ years. None of this is unusual; in fact, I suspect many fellows in my age group have similar experiences -- and most of our younger members will eventually face them.

The way I have retained precision accuracy from 10 yards in -- and I agree most defensive shooting is in the 2 to 7 yard range category -- is to devote most (75 percent) of my weekly practice to ranges over 50 feet. When I concentrate, my eyes are not "end session" tried and am lucky, I can consistently shoot tight groups at >20 yards. The fact is -- and this is key to this distance discussion -- working for good accuracy at 50+ feet ensures excellent accuracy at 20 or 30 feet.

In sum, if you want to group in the 9 and X rings at <30 feet, work hard at grouping in the 9 and X rings at 50 or 60 feet.
 
45automan; For serious business and putting decent groups together I shoot at 7 and 10 yards. That's it. I'll put up a silhouette with the bad guy holding a hostage around the neck and see if I can shoot the BG without popin ' the hostage. It's fun and challenging. I've shot silhouette's at 25 yards before. I don't have any problem hitting the kill zone. Are my groups tiny? Not really. Are my groups tiny at 7 yards? Yeah, there're pretty small. After the serious business is over I blow stuff up with my 12 gauge and S&B 00 buck. Just havin' fun! But it does get me comfortable with my 12 gauge. Best Regards, J. Parker
 
Shooting tight groups at 25 yards improves your close range groups too. The best way is to shoot at random distances. 7,10,15 20 and 25 yard in no set pattern. This also helps your judgement as to distance and helps you to be sighted in correctly at most any distance. Remember that the most important thing is to be able to accurately hit the intended target. As for the reliability of a pistol. If after 400 rounds he is still experiencing problems I would say that it's time to see a smith and resolve the problem or if the gun is new send it back and have the factory correct the problem. I'm sure that with a few licks from a good smith, that gun will be just fine.

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***Torpedo***
It's a good life if you can survive it!
 
This is one topic that is a pet peeve of mine. Shooting for accuaracy at 25 yards is a must, but for me 25 is not enough, the minimum is 50 yards. The folks that shoot the 3, 5, 7, 10 and holler about one hole groups are just plain kidding themselves. There is no challenge at those distances, and I stand by that comment. Another poster said it, hit well at 20-25 and the close in stuff is a cake walk. At the limited distances out to 15 yards the shooter and the gun are not being challenged to even their minimum potential. If your range as the facilities for you to shoot at 25 yards or more, do it and do it a lot. You will be amazed at how well you can do after some practice and the close in stuff will be boring.

If you are caught out in the open with no cover for 50 or 60 yards and some goof is taking shots at you wouldnt it be nice to return the favor and have a damn good chance of connecting.



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No man is above the law and no man is below it,nor do we ask any mans permission when we require him to obey it.
 
If your only use for a handgun is self defense, then you can possibly get by with 7 yard practice.

However, there are many recreational handgun activities you can spend more time at--we typically spend little to no time in actual self defense. The other recreational activities require shooting at ranges 25 yds, 50 yds or more.

I work from the premise that if the greatest challenge a shooter has is 7 yds, s/he will only be able to meet a minimal challenge in terms of accuracy. Under stress our level of competence commonly goes way down, so having some extra competence in reserve isn't a bad idea.

I use computer distance glasses to see the front sight and targets at 15 yds or greater are blobs, but enjoy the challenge of longer distances. Except for weak hand, target acquisition (from high ready or holster) and sequential target acquisition (one per trigger pull) I find 7 yds very boring.
 
What sigfan said plus;

Most of the defensive targets have a "kill zone" eight inches across. If you are in a close in defensive situation you need to reliably put em in the "Stop zone". That is bout two inches across.

If you are gonna take it upon yourself to try to take out a bad guy with hostage, you better get the first shot in a high cns area or the hostage will likely be history. That is a very high risk undertaking and the shooter better be better than good.

Sam
 
And yes, milk jug groups can be shot with snubby barrels double action- I used a 2 1/2" S&W Model 19 - at a hundred yards. In extremity, I'd hope to do the same at 20 or 25 yards.

The switch to autos from revolvers may have had it's detriments as well as it's benefits. If the gun won't shoot into 4" at 25 yards, shorten the distance to 15 yards. That doesn't cut it for me. We should be raising the standards, not lowering them!
 
The Main reason I like to shoot at 25metres.

* Confidence *
It is one of the major factors in being able to shoot well, confidence in yourself and more importantly confidence in your firearm.

You will shoot how you think you will shoot.

Have fun,
 
I agree with the notion that if you are good at 25 yards, you will be excellent at 7 yards. It is pure and simple logic.

But it is not at 25 yards that you start your training.!!!!!!!!
It is at 7 yards.
Even at the academy, we had to proove to the instructor that we could hit the 7 yard bullseye, before moving on to targets at longer distances.
Remember that even the smallest mistake at 7 yards is magnified at 25, and becomes a waste of time.
In other words: learn how to shoot at 7 really well, and then move on!!
Just my 2 cents worth.
MOOSE
 
Texaken; The sight picture of a silhouette is totally different at 3,7,or 10 yards than it is at 25 yards or more. I can draw, shoot double taps at these distances with confidence. Unless you're a cop, if you shoot somebody at 25 yards or more you're gonna be in some serious trouble! Best, J. Parker
 
I can get half the holes in the paper at 15 feet.

I watched cops at the range. They get a big upper torso outline target and shoot 100 rounds at 5 feet. I think they just want the conditioned response to shoot, or have so many rounds fired required.
 
There's more to handgunning than putting shots in the kill zone of a combat target at single digit yardages.
The Glockhkczsig .401 KaBoomer shooter may not believe it, but a good revolver or single shot handgun can rival the accuracy of many rifles to 200 yards or more. With a little tweaking, even the Siglockhkcz can surprise you.
Hunting, plinking, and target shooting (bullseye and silhouette) all call for good accuracy on small targets at ranges beyond arms' length.
Defense pistol is a single discipline in the handgunning world, but not the only one. Even in the defense role, a handgun may often be called upon to substitute for a rifle.
If there is a legitimate threat beyond 7 yards, I'd like to know that I can meet it. And in close, I'll still be more accurate for having had the practice at distant precision targets.

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If they take our guns, I intend to let my hair grow long and acquire the jawbone of an ass.
 
If you set up silhouette's at longer distances what kind of mindset are you developing? To shoot somebody at that distance? The use of deadly force at 3,4 or 5 yards is much more defendable in court than shooting somebody at 25 yards. At that distance it becomes a much more serious legal issue. If you shoot somebody at 25 yards I guarantee you you'll need a damn good lawyer. We all like to have fun when we go shooting. My "fun" shooting happens beyond 7 yards. Hitting steel plates at long distances with a handgun is "fun". Shooting silhouette's at close range is serious business. Just my thoughts, J. Parker
 
If I would have to shoot someone at 25 yards to keep them from shooting me,I would rather be faced with getting a good lawyer than have my wife have to find a good undertaker.BILLG
 
Mr Parker,
Please allow me to disagree, about shooting someone at 25 yards and being in trouble. If I or anyone else has probable cause and is in fear for their life from someone shooting at them from 25 yards or more and I return fire and kill the person then I have not commited a crime, I have saved my life or the life of someone else. It makes no difference what the distace is, the deciding factor is were you justified in shooting. Being proficient at 25 yards or more is simply a matter of practice and will instill confidence in your ability. We have some wide open spaces in my area so a 25 yard shot would not be extraordinary. I do not advocate shooting at 25 yards if you can acquire cover immediatley, but it is nice to know that I have the ability to make the shot if I need to.
 
When I shoot at greater than ten yards, it is just for fun. I'm not LEO and I don't believe self-defense requirements are the same as LEO. In California, you had better be careful shooting at any distance. I believe that the law here requires that you die, reincarnate and then shoot.
 
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