Why carry a snubbie anymore?

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I'm another J-Frame fan. True, there are autos that conceal as well, have greater capacity and are more powerful. However, I approach the issue as a total shooting package. I reload about 95% of the ammo that I shoot. There is no cartrigge that is simpler to reload than the .38/.357. More importantly, I don't have to chase brass.
 
More importantly, revolvers are just prettier than those other things!

Bob S, why carry only five rounds in a Bianchi Speed Strip when it can easily hold six?
 
George, a Glock 33 in .357 sig beats that "FULL HOUSE .357 Mag" in performance, AND it is slimmer, AND it holds 9+1 instead of 6.

BTW, which is smaller, a Pocket Nine or KelTec P11?
 
Okay, I would bet my life that I could pull the trigger on my revolver five times and hear five bangs. And this is with the revolver in a coat pocket. I wouldn't bet a hundred bucks that you could pull the trigger twice on an auto and hear two bangs; with the gun in a pocket. Second, Joe Mannix also carried a revolver. Third, they look better. Forth, more weight out front means less muzzle flip. Fifth, if you need five reasons, just stay home and watch TV. -Kframe
 
Oh yeah, that revolver I'd bet my life on? Smith & Wesson, Model 640-1 "Centennial" .357 Magnum. Kept loaded with Win. "white-box" 110gr. JHP's. -Kframe
 
George Hill -

With all respect, when you get into the .357 magnum, you are talking a totally different gun because they are significanlty biger and heavier. Hold a .357 Mag snubbie next to a Glock 27 and the difference is very noticable. Most .357 Mag snubbies are much larger (especially if they hold 6 rounds!), hardly qualify as a pocket gun, and weigh as much as a full sized Glock. The point is, they are a different league from the 5 shot .38 I am comparing to a subcompact Glock, both of which are similar in weight and size.
Also, many people forget that the .357 ballistics go out the window when you shoot them out of a 2 inch barrel. All that power turns into a lot of muzzle flash and lots of lost velocities. So much so that the claim can be made that a 9mm is more potent out of the short barrel, because it does not lose all the velocity, and the two bullet end up very close in performance. Then there is the .40....

I hate to bring this up because people who have not had my (great) experience with the gun will bash it, but my KelTec P-11 has given me 500 rounds of FLAWLESS shooting and I can drill one hole with it at 15 yards (literally). At 14 ounces, with my hi-cap mag holding 12 rounds plus one in the chamber (yes, 13 rounds of 9mm), is a very small package. There are other guns out there, like the single stack Kahr (the lightweight Polymer Kahr soon!) that fit this bill.

I see some points here though such that: you can fire a snubbie from a pocket multiple rounds (don't know why I would want to do that even once, let alone multiple times....but anyway), and the weight is forward so they stay inthe pocket.
 
I carry a S&W 637 (Airweight Chief's Special).

Reasons (in no particular order):
1) Weight. I'm more likely to have a gun that's comfortable to carry on me if I ever need it (hopefully, I never will need it)
2) Accuracy. I have fairly small hands, it fits them better than any comparably sized 9mm I've found (and I don't want to carry a .380)
3) Adequate firepower 5 shots, 124 gr Gold Dots in .38 spl +P - yeah, I know it's slow to reload, but what are the odds I'll have to? If you have to fire more than 5 shots, you either need more practice, or you need a shotgun/assault rifle. Knowing I only have 5 shots, I think, will make me more deliberate (safer for any non-BG's in the vicinity).
4) Reliability. That's been covered. As to the question someone asked about why you would want to fire through a pocket, I can only give you the information I was given: 90% of gunfights occour within 20 feet, 75% within 5 ft. Grab a friend, go buy a toy pistol, and play this little game. Take your toy pistol, put it in the holster and cover it up. Measure 20 ft. Have your friend close that distance as quickly as possible (he moves first - this is a defensive drill, right?). Try to draw, point and pull the trigger before he reaches you (if you want a little realism, give him a rubber knife, wiffle bat, or let him try to tackle you). Then try it again at 10 ft, and again at 5 ft. See how many times he's on top of you before you can do all that. Then remember - you might not know it's coming when it's for real - cut the time you have in half.
5) Simplicity - I pull the trigger, it shoots. If I have a bad round, I pull the trigger again. That's about as simple as it gets
6) Safety - it's easy to see if it's loaded with a glance.
7) Reliability

That's about it. I like autos, too, but my choice for a carry gun is a revolver.

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Beginner barbarians probably had the idea that every house they broke into would be full of untouched loot and frightened, unarmed victims. It just doesn't work that way, my friend.

I hope these evil men come to understand our peaceful ways soon - My trigger finger is blistering!
 
The Glock is slim, yes...
But when its in a concealment rig it still has a big grip sticking out.
A revolvers is much smaller and easier to hide.
Anyways - personally a carry a PPK/S for covert missions. Why?
Hmmm... Not sure - other than it is KEWL, MAN!

I need to go home....

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Not all Liberals are annoying... Some are Dead.
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
In my area, the need for light clothing generally means that I use a pocket holster for concealed carry. I have pocket holsters for both my G26 and my S&W .38 Bodyguard Airweight.

I carry the Glock whenever possible, because I personally find it easier to shoot. However, the S&W is lighter and slightly more compact than the Glock, and is therefore more comfortable and less conspicuous to carry in a pocket holster. The Glock is okay with loose britches and deep pockets, and this is what I try to wear. But when carrying the Glock is not practical, I still have the S&W.

JMHO.

[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited September 28, 1999).]
 
red bull,
I have a s&w #60 .357 that is the same size as the old chief's special. It is easy to carry & shoot. It weighs about the same as the Glock 27, but is 1/3 smaller. I carri it when I cant carry the 27.

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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best
 
I think someone may have seen this response before but Im sort of new to posting. But, for carry I prefer a caliber no other concealable semi-auto is chambered in, the .44 mag.
 
BTW - Everyone: your words do not fall on deaf ears. I am going to pick up a .38 lightweight S&W snubby and see how it works for me. I will see if I end up carrying it instead of my KelTec. (Yes, I know "no gun for $200 could be any good", but I can't rave enough about my %100 reliable and super-accurate KelTec P-11.) At 14 ounces plus 13 rounds of 9mm, my KelTec is a wunder-carry-gun, but I will see if the snubby has some carry-ergonomics that you guys described that makes it better.
The only thing above carry-ergonimcs is perhaps reliabilty. While my KelTec has been %100 reliable in many hundreds of rounds, I guess the revolover could be a little more reliable (more reliable than %100..? I guess it is possible ;) ).
 
I am partial to Glock pistols myself, and feel that the G27 is the best ankle pistol available. That being said, it is a hard choice between a 41 magnum snubbie and a G27.
 
Red Bull, did you see this thread? It gives some of the most compelling reasons I can think of! ;)

[Link to invalid post]

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Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up... Yankee Doodle
 
The arguments I've heard here are very sensible, and I'm almost convinced. But there is a problem.

I started shooting IDPA a few months back. I'm not a great shot, but I do alright in the lower classifications. I've shot my Kel-Tec P11, my Rossi 877 (snubbie .357), my 1911, my Sig P210, and my Glock 17. I'll soon try my Star Firestar .40.

I had been doing exceptionally well with my Glock and was getting impressed with myself. I decided to try my Rossi. (I had a very good gunsmith do a trigger job, and install S&W springs. I practiced a lot with it, and its a very good gun -- shooting either single or double action. More often than not I was shooting 2" groups at 30 feet, and rapid fire it would only 4".)

It was an eye opener. Under the pressure of shooting in a simulated combat situation (and I don't fool myself that IDPA simulations are 1/10th the stress of real-life combat), shooting anything but both hands, I didn't have a clue where the bullet was going. I had similar problems with my Kel-Tec P11, when shooting left-handed. Did not have that problem with any of my other guns.

There's a lot of folks here making big bets on their snubbies. Have you all really tried shooting them in ways that might simulate a real-life crisis. It might be a good thing to try...

A 2" - 2 1/2" barrel is a very short sight radius, and if you're shooting fast, while moving, with weak hand, or with dominant hand only, its really tough to hit what you're aiming at. To make matters worse, most snubbies have crappy sights -- if they really have sights at all.

Can a snub-nosed gun be shot well: accurately and rapidly? I sure it can be done, but I think it'll happen only after a lot more practice than most people are willing to put in.

In the meantime -- if you haven't tested your gun (and yourself) in these types of drills, you may be in for a rude surprise.

[This message has been edited by Walt Sherrill (edited October 09, 1999).]
 
Games are games. IDPA is very much a game. No cross draw, no shoulder holster. Mandatory shoots out of a movable vehicle senario. Etc.

One doesn't know sh*t until they bust a cap on a BG/VBG/VVBG/VVVBG or worse etc. It's all theory. I advoid such situations like the plague.

I can hit a man sized target five times with SW642 (belly, pelvis, upper torso area) one handed with out careful sighting in to about 8 yards. After that I get slower and miss a couple of times when I'm in a hurry. I need to IMPROVE. Do it either hand in any position at differing light. And it can still be be FUBAR even if I can kill a gnat at 10yds at midnight with my carry piece.

I can also carry the SW642 much more easily than my old Glock 17 w/ 18rds.

If I was going through doors and busting caps on multiple BGs, then I'd want the Glock.

Where do most gun fights occur? What distances? What will I have with me? What action have I not had a jam with?

A revolver, a SW642 will work fine.


PS

I believe in point shooting, so I must be full of sh*t ;).

[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited October 10, 1999).]
 
Okay, you convinced me to at least give it a try. I tell you what, I have a snubbie on me right now, and 5 rounds of reliability feels REAL good. Nothing will get you killed faster than a jam when someone is in your face.
I think I will end up carrying the snubbie JUST for up-close situations though. In any other situation, I can't see why I would not rather have my Glock.
 
Prichard, you wrote.

"Games are games. IDPA is very much a game. No cross draw, no shoulder holster. Mandatory shoots out of a movable vehicle senario. Etc. "

Agreed. (But, the holster restrictions are for the safety of the bystanders and the financial well-being of match organizers.) I'd like to see more options in holsters, too, but not at the cost of turning my recreation into a life-threatening outting.

Yet, however gamelike these drills or scenarios might be, they are more realistic than simply punching paper -- which is what most folks shooting snubbies (or most other guns, for that matter) do.

Unlike you, I was not as competent in the use of a small revolver as I thought I was. An IDPA drilled showed my just how ill-prepared I was.

I think a lot of other folks out there (using snubbies AND other guns) are just as unprepared as I was. I had a great snubbie and a lot of confidence in my ability to use it. Had.

"I can hit a man sized target five times with SW642 (belly, pelvis, upper torso area) one handed with out careful sighting in to about 8 yards. After that I get slower and miss a couple of times when I'm in a hurry. I need to IMPROVE. Do it either hand in any position at differing light. And it can still be be FUBAR even if I can kill a gnat at 10yds at midnight with my carry piece."


If you'll reread my first message you'll notice that I didn't counsel against using snubbies. I simply said a lot of folks would likely be surprised if they had to use their "snubbie" for hard work. I didn't say "DON'T DO IT." With enough practice it could be a very effective weapon.

I simply suggestd that folks try it in a more realistic scenario. Its sounds as though you've tried it and are comfortable and confident. Good for you.

"If I was going through doors and busting caps on multiple BGs, then I'd want the Glock."

You can't have misfires, failures to feed, etc. then, too? Why is reliability less critical with multiple BGs than with just one (or maybe two). How has the need for reliabilty diminished? Lots of folks can speed load a revolver just about as quickly as doing a magazine exchange. (The best score at our local IDPA match last week was a 4" S&W 7-shot .357 [shooting .38 spl +Ps]. A light, concealeable weapon. Several of the scenarios required tactical reloads.)


"Where do most gun fights occur? What distances? What will I have with me? What action have I not had a jam with?"

Most gun fights occur up close. But that's MOST gun fights. (What is a greater risk: the likelihood that an auto won't fire, or that the bad guy is more than 10 feet away from you?)

"A revolver, a SW642 will work fine."

I agree that a revovler will work fine; I just cited a case where a revolver did better than fine. But, I've had failures to fire with revolvers, too: bad ammo at time or two, and an extractor rod/center pin working loose causing the cylinder to jam against the frame. Took me a few minutes to figure that out, the first time it happened. Loc-Tite, hopefully will keep it from happening again.
I've seen this same problem happen to guys at the range and they are completely stupified -- they haven't a clue as to the cause of the problem or its solution. Its not common, but it does happen. And the first time it happens to you its likely to be debilitating. What if that happened in a crisis situation?

Sounds as though you've done YOUR homework. I hope the rest of the snub-nosed revolver enthusiasts have, too.
 
I barely qualified for my CWP with a Ruger P-85, I probably would have done better with a Ruger SP-101 .357 magnum. Right now I carry a S&W .380, But when I can decide what make & model, I'm getting another magnum revolver.

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FREEDOM AIN'T FREE!
 
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