You know after the big one WWII our fathers didn't have much money. The Levers won the west and the pumps were fast actions. Most of those rifles were designed for iron sights. Even the 870 pump was in use to clear larger areas fast. That is why the pump's and Levers were hot back then. My dad used a 94 as I did. It was the way to go and they took a lot of deer. There were very few scopes after the War. My deer gun today is a Browning BLR It is fast, accurate, powerful but it has a 1-5 power scope. That's the difference in then and now. Optic technology...
Why aren't pump action hunting rifles more popular?
- Thread starter Roadkill2228
- Start date
There's no doubt in my mind that optics improvements and lowered costs over the years have really made the bolt-action a much more formidable hunting weapon, eclipsing all other types of hunting rifles in many states.
I had one of the first Savage 110s made, buying it in it's first year. It was a .30-06 and had a low comb.
Being a student and part-time employee, I couldn't afford a scope for it for several months. As soon as I could, I bought a Weaver 2.5X scope and Weaver Detachable Top Mounts.
Then, got a Bishop semi-inletted blank which I sculpted similar to the form of a Weatherby MK5. What a difference!!! The original stock kicked the heck out of me, but the Weatherby design was fabulous. I didn't even have a recoil pad on it.
That made a very nice deer hunting rig, at the time. For practice, several of us hunted woodchucks, crows and foxes with our deer rifles. Some years, I was able to average over 200 yards per chuck with that rig.
I had one of the first Savage 110s made, buying it in it's first year. It was a .30-06 and had a low comb.
Being a student and part-time employee, I couldn't afford a scope for it for several months. As soon as I could, I bought a Weaver 2.5X scope and Weaver Detachable Top Mounts.
Then, got a Bishop semi-inletted blank which I sculpted similar to the form of a Weatherby MK5. What a difference!!! The original stock kicked the heck out of me, but the Weatherby design was fabulous. I didn't even have a recoil pad on it.
That made a very nice deer hunting rig, at the time. For practice, several of us hunted woodchucks, crows and foxes with our deer rifles. Some years, I was able to average over 200 yards per chuck with that rig.
A .35 Whelen with an 18" barrel would be a very fine thing for setting the landscape afire, contributing to hearing loss and messing up night vision ..... I think, and not much else. The "much better ballistics down range" of the .35 Whelen (as compared to the .45-70) comes in part from higher velocity ..... much of which would be lost in a carbine length barrel ......
Shortening barrels on large capacity bottle necked cased calibers tends to make for "more show and less go" ......
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
After reading this thread over and thinking about it some more, I'm convinced that pump rifles are not really underrepresented in hunting, but ARE underrepresented in self-defense rifles. We talked about the Rem 7615p above, and it's a bit surprising to me that these aren't more popular for the self-defense crowd. I don't care how good or perfectly tuned your AR/AK/FAL/M14/SKS/VZ58/PTR91/CETME is, it is still, on average, less reliable than a pump. It's still going to have on average, more jams per 5K rounds than a pump. And reliability is THE primary concern for a self-defense rifle. And being just almost as fast, it's seems that an argument could be made that they're preferable to a semi-auto for most instances of actual real civilian self-defense. No, they won't have the accuracy of the AR15 in all likelihood, which is undoubtedly why they're not popular for this use, but they'll be more reliable than even the best clean & lubed AR15. And frankly, actual real self-defense encounters by definition happen at very short ranges where accuracy isn't needed, because well, if you could run rather than shoot, it typically is not valid self-defense. Pumps CAN jam of course, like any weapon. But the average pump is going to have fewer jams than the best semi for every 5K or 10K rounds, even if only a few fewer.
But the reality is that even though this "self defense crowd" or market, which includes me, is very large, the actual instances of self-defense are relatively small (though bigger than the antis would have you believe), and moreover, 1 shot or NO shots is usually all that's needed to resolve the situation, so you don't hear about semi-auto jams leading to death mayhem and destruction from criminals... because it doesn't. The accuracy and ergonomics win the day (and the extra speed & "fun factor" - though arguably a pump is as fun or more fun than a semi - personal preference)... thus everyone loves them some ARs, myself included. But as I mentioned above, this thread has me thinking about a Rem 7615P, and if I could get one in 6.8 SPC, I'd jump on it like a duck on a june bug.
I'm not sure if it would be more fair to say: For typical non-WROL self-defense, a semi trumps a pump, but for WROL, a pump trumps a semi. Or the other way around - more valid and realistic to say: For typical non-WROL self-defense, a pump trumps a semi, but for WROL, a semi trumps a pump. I mean, in WROL, you're shooting MORE, which puts a premium on reliability. But you're also potentially shooting longer distances, if your goal is to eradicate and demoralize an occupying force with guerrilla attacks & assassinations, so that puts a premium on accuracy. So it cuts both ways. (of course, not all WROL scenarios involve an occupying force, so standard self-defense ranges will still be the norm in many potential WROL situations, where accuracy would still not be at a premium).
As for fun at the range, obviously the more accurate the better, and that favors ARs (over allegedly-inaccurate pump rifles - but is this really true?).
I guess in the end it comes down to gritty conditions or lack thereof and cleaning/maintenance level that you undertake. If you don't like to ever clean your guns, and/or live in a dust storm area like Iraq, a pump is gonna be preferred over a semi for self-defense. But in wetter climes and a regular cleaning regiment, a semi would trump a pump.
Now, when or if WROL really did/does happen, the reality is this: No matter how busy you are or think you are now, you'd be a lot busier than you are now, every second of every day if the S hit the F - everything you do would be about survival, and without modern energy and conveniences, every minute of the day would be taken up with tasks related to basic survival needs of you and family/friends. In that scenario, one of the last things on earth you'd want to mess with is cleaning your self-defense weapon. There's just ain't nobody that got time for that. You would of course, if absolutely necessary, but not unless and until absolutely necessary to make it run. That bodes in favor of pumps for WROL potentially, vs. semis for everyday normal self-defense. Agree or not?
P.S. I understand that many don't think WROL is in the realm of possibilities - I do hope you're right.. You may of course ignore my question in that event.
But the reality is that even though this "self defense crowd" or market, which includes me, is very large, the actual instances of self-defense are relatively small (though bigger than the antis would have you believe), and moreover, 1 shot or NO shots is usually all that's needed to resolve the situation, so you don't hear about semi-auto jams leading to death mayhem and destruction from criminals... because it doesn't. The accuracy and ergonomics win the day (and the extra speed & "fun factor" - though arguably a pump is as fun or more fun than a semi - personal preference)... thus everyone loves them some ARs, myself included. But as I mentioned above, this thread has me thinking about a Rem 7615P, and if I could get one in 6.8 SPC, I'd jump on it like a duck on a june bug.
I'm not sure if it would be more fair to say: For typical non-WROL self-defense, a semi trumps a pump, but for WROL, a pump trumps a semi. Or the other way around - more valid and realistic to say: For typical non-WROL self-defense, a pump trumps a semi, but for WROL, a semi trumps a pump. I mean, in WROL, you're shooting MORE, which puts a premium on reliability. But you're also potentially shooting longer distances, if your goal is to eradicate and demoralize an occupying force with guerrilla attacks & assassinations, so that puts a premium on accuracy. So it cuts both ways. (of course, not all WROL scenarios involve an occupying force, so standard self-defense ranges will still be the norm in many potential WROL situations, where accuracy would still not be at a premium).
As for fun at the range, obviously the more accurate the better, and that favors ARs (over allegedly-inaccurate pump rifles - but is this really true?).
I guess in the end it comes down to gritty conditions or lack thereof and cleaning/maintenance level that you undertake. If you don't like to ever clean your guns, and/or live in a dust storm area like Iraq, a pump is gonna be preferred over a semi for self-defense. But in wetter climes and a regular cleaning regiment, a semi would trump a pump.
Now, when or if WROL really did/does happen, the reality is this: No matter how busy you are or think you are now, you'd be a lot busier than you are now, every second of every day if the S hit the F - everything you do would be about survival, and without modern energy and conveniences, every minute of the day would be taken up with tasks related to basic survival needs of you and family/friends. In that scenario, one of the last things on earth you'd want to mess with is cleaning your self-defense weapon. There's just ain't nobody that got time for that. You would of course, if absolutely necessary, but not unless and until absolutely necessary to make it run. That bodes in favor of pumps for WROL potentially, vs. semis for everyday normal self-defense. Agree or not?
P.S. I understand that many don't think WROL is in the realm of possibilities - I do hope you're right.. You may of course ignore my question in that event.
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.... where would one attach the shooting sling?
My father never had a sling for his 141 Remy Gamemaster. That may help to explain the lack of remaining blueing where he carried it for so many dear seasons. I found a small clamp-on-style swivel that mounts to the front of the magazine tube when I gave the rifle to my son. Being a lefty he just naturally took to shooting pumps.
It's also a match to the model 121 Fieldmaster in .22 that he got on his 12th birthday. Dad gave me the 121 on my 12th b-day, and I passed it on in like fashion.
Near as I can tell, the 141 in .35 Rem was built in April 1938, the 121 in .22 left New York in July of 1937. They're both still good shooters.
Here's a funny for you. The 121 is the only tube fed rifle I was ever able to mix shorts, longs, or long rifle in any order and never have mis-feed. Locating any .22 Long ammo is the cause for another post...
My father never had a sling for his 141 Remy Gamemaster. That may help to explain the lack of remaining blueing where he carried it for so many dear seasons. I found a small clamp-on-style swivel that mounts to the front of the magazine tube when I gave the rifle to my son. Being a lefty he just naturally took to shooting pumps.
It's also a match to the model 121 Fieldmaster in .22 that he got on his 12th birthday. Dad gave me the 121 on my 12th b-day, and I passed it on in like fashion.
Near as I can tell, the 141 in .35 Rem was built in April 1938, the 121 in .22 left New York in July of 1937. They're both still good shooters.
Here's a funny for you. The 121 is the only tube fed rifle I was ever able to mix shorts, longs, or long rifle in any order and never have mis-feed. Locating any .22 Long ammo is the cause for another post...
PHEASANTPETE
New member
Remington 7615P Is UGLY
Talk about an ugly duckling. http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm That thing looks like a Frankenstein rifle. Why not just get the AR it does a poor job trying to pretend to look like?
The 7600 is really closer to a semi-auto that is manually operated by a sliding action. I guess one could say that about many slides. Why no one else makes one? I ask why doesn't Remington currently make a lever acton that do sell well. Remington instead makes 7*0's that look like crap and have nothing to do with a 700.
Maybe there marketing department figures there are enough people who will buy a remington for the name and like to be different.
They are just part of a investment banking group now so who knows why they do anything nowadays.
Talk about an ugly duckling. http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm That thing looks like a Frankenstein rifle. Why not just get the AR it does a poor job trying to pretend to look like?
The 7600 is really closer to a semi-auto that is manually operated by a sliding action. I guess one could say that about many slides. Why no one else makes one? I ask why doesn't Remington currently make a lever acton that do sell well. Remington instead makes 7*0's that look like crap and have nothing to do with a 700.
Maybe there marketing department figures there are enough people who will buy a remington for the name and like to be different.
They are just part of a investment banking group now so who knows why they do anything nowadays.Oh I was not referring to the sling as used for a carrying strap .... "shooting sling" as in an aid in steadying the rifle.
All the talk of the "free floating barrel" making a particular pump gun as accurate as a bolt gun made me wonder where one would attach the shooting sling .....
PHEASANTPETE
New member
"Actually, they have better accuracy than most." Than most what? Shotguns? Then I agree, Ar's? No way. They may be more accurate than a well used M-16 that is poorly maintained. A good issue M-16 will punch 6" circles at 500 meters in the hands of an expert with iron sights. I doubt the 7600 would do so without serious tuning.
Never heard of them being used by target shooters. They make a fine deer rifle and will group under 2 MOA with most loads which makes the 7600 acceptable for field use. Bolts are inherently a tighter lockup. The 7600 chamber is a little looser to allow easier feeding and more realiable extraction.
Never heard of them being used by target shooters. They make a fine deer rifle and will group under 2 MOA with most loads which makes the 7600 acceptable for field use. Bolts are inherently a tighter lockup. The 7600 chamber is a little looser to allow easier feeding and more realiable extraction.
PHEASANTPETE
New member
Red Herrings Good for Dog Trials
I was illustrating the accuracy of an gov't issue M-16 in good working order vs. 7600. Nothing was said about hunting. That is a red herring argument.
I did not make the generalized claim that 7600 were more accurate than AR's.
There may individual case were one rifle vs. another is but that general claim is not true when comparing AR's to 7600's.
The 7600 is accurate enough as I earlier stated for most hunting within 300 yds. A 500 meter shot is ethical on a white-tail or smaller with an AR in 7.62, 7-08, or 260 Remington and most critically the shooter behind the rifle. The right bullet, a longer barrel (22-26") for improved velocity, low crosswind, proper angle, proficient shooter and proper data card make it an ethical shoot for a very few. Most have no business past 200 yds IMO. I used to be able to shoot like that but that was when I competed and the gov't paid for the ammo. I would limited myself to 350m maybe 400m with some extra practice because the worst thing I could do is wound an animal I could not recover. That is against my ethics besides silently stalking closer would be more challenging and really hunting.
I was illustrating the accuracy of an gov't issue M-16 in good working order vs. 7600. Nothing was said about hunting. That is a red herring argument.
I did not make the generalized claim that 7600 were more accurate than AR's.
There may individual case were one rifle vs. another is but that general claim is not true when comparing AR's to 7600's. The 7600 is accurate enough as I earlier stated for most hunting within 300 yds. A 500 meter shot is ethical on a white-tail or smaller with an AR in 7.62, 7-08, or 260 Remington and most critically the shooter behind the rifle. The right bullet, a longer barrel (22-26") for improved velocity, low crosswind, proper angle, proficient shooter and proper data card make it an ethical shoot for a very few. Most have no business past 200 yds IMO. I used to be able to shoot like that but that was when I competed and the gov't paid for the ammo. I would limited myself to 350m maybe 400m with some extra practice because the worst thing I could do is wound an animal I could not recover. That is against my ethics besides silently stalking closer would be more challenging and really hunting.
You need to get your stories straight.
In the first place, I quoted what someone else stated in this thread about an AR-15 being more accurate than a 7600.
Secondly, most people think of an AR-15 as 5.56/223. Same with M16.
Third, the OP began by talking about pump rifles and HUNTING. Not many RESPONSIBLE hunters use 5.56/223 to shoot deer beyond 100 yards.
Most AR-15s that I've come across do about 1.5-2.0MOA at 100yds. The more expensive ones do better. The 7600s I've shot have been MOA or better.
I'm done. Enjoy your red herrings and M-16s.
In the first place, I quoted what someone else stated in this thread about an AR-15 being more accurate than a 7600.
Secondly, most people think of an AR-15 as 5.56/223. Same with M16.
Third, the OP began by talking about pump rifles and HUNTING. Not many RESPONSIBLE hunters use 5.56/223 to shoot deer beyond 100 yards.
Most AR-15s that I've come across do about 1.5-2.0MOA at 100yds. The more expensive ones do better. The 7600s I've shot have been MOA or better.
I'm done. Enjoy your red herrings and M-16s.
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Really? Interesting, thank you. Which ones specifically do you find to shoot well?
Hmmm, again - interesting.
Fatboy5108
New member
here in Australia the Remington 7600 and 7615 series rifles are very popular as we are'nt allowed to have semi autos here any more, i plan to make my next purchase a 7615 or 7600 police in .308. they would be great for feral pig shooting as they are nice and short and the fast follow up shots would be handy as the pigs usually live in large groups.
Roadkill2228
New member
That sounds just about perfect for a pig hunting setup. Several years ago we had a little problem with pigs and a fried of mine would bring his rem 760 .308 on his snowmobile (live in saskatchewan) ready to go if he happened upon them. He shot 8 of them over the winter that way. It can take a little abuse.
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
Huh?
You said first:
the THEY in that sentence refers to pump rifles (and specifically, I believe you meant, to a 7600). The they in that sentence does NOT refer to AR15s.
So why are you now mentioning AR15s? Your claim, to rebut mine about AR15s, is that *they* (pumps) actually have better accuracy than *most* AR15s. Which I have no reason to disbelieve, having never had a 7600 or other pump bottlenecked-centerfire.
So I said "interesting; thanks; which ones?" (meaning which pumps are more accurate than most AR15s?)
Then I realized you were talking about 7600s, so I edited to show you that I saw that and said thanks again, because I answered my own question. (well, you answered it in a separate place in the thread)
So the end result is (I thought) that you were saying 7600s are more accurate than MOST AR15s...is that not what you're saying?
Because if so, although I still have no reason to disbelieve it, it would be a little bit surprising if you're saying that a 7600 is more accurate than those specific high-quality AR15s you mention.
So what ARE you saying - AR15s more accurate or 7600s more accurate? The conventional wisdom is that 7600s ain't all that accurate, which is why I found your claim to the contrary to be "interesting" (in light of the fact that AR15s have a reputation for being accurate).
Maybe you're saying 7600s are more accurate than MOST AR15s but not those 3 high-end ones?
So you'd prefer I said that your comments were worthless and irrelevant or what?
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