Why aren't pump action hunting rifles more popular?

JD0x0

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People use pump action shotguns because when bird or rabbit hunting, you don't have to remove the gun from your shoulder and can quickly fire a follow up shot if necessary.
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Huh? Last time I checked you don't need to unshoulder a bolt action to get a follow up shot. Maybe if you're shooting a right handed rifle with your left hand, under most circumstances you can cycle the bolt of a bolt action rather quickly, and without removing the stock from your shoulder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=017HY8V8nU0
That's a mosin nagant, which are known for having some pretty sticky, hard to work actions, at times.
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If you are firing a [military]bolt action right handed, most I have seen unshoulder the rifle. Do you NEED to unshoulder it? No. However I've fired many a K-98 that had a very tight lock up, and it was extremely impractical to leave it shouldered.

That being said, just as in the video you presented, the shooter had to break his break his cheek off the stock to move his face out of the way of the bolt after every shot, therefore having to reset the stock and reacquire the target. That translates to me as alot more effort on the user, and a loss of time/accuracy.

Also, you're comparing a Mosin bolt action to a slide action shotgun... If a bolt action shotgun was more practical to use in bird/rabbit hunting, I guess we'd be seeing alot more at the skeet ranges and in the field!

Must be why Tom Knapp was able to shoot 7 clays out of the air with a pump, NOT a bolt action... Just sayin ;)

I can shoot my 870 pretty darn quick without moving my hands (other than to move the slide) or face while maintaining a line of site to my target. I'd be willing to bet a $100 bill, that I can get 3 rounds out of my 870 shotgun before anyone can get 3 off with a Mosin Nagant...


The OP was originally asking about pump action rifles, so I feel that we're straying away from the topic a little.
 
Yep, MoGas - you are right - a pump is faster than a turnbolt in equally trained hands (although someone with an SMLE can get close).

Pumps vs. levers are a closer call, but pumps still win.

Now pumps vs. straight-pull bolts are closer still, almost a dead heat - I think pump still wins though - you don't have to move your trigger hand at all, unlike the others.

The only manual repeater I can think of faster than a slide action would be a Browning BL-22 possibly, with the short-stroke lever. But that's rimfire not centerfire.
 
Dremel,
That would be awesome if someone could work a K-31 Schmidt-Rubin like Tom Knapp worked that Benelli! :eek: I would honestly pay money to see that :D

But I agree someone could get pretty darn close with that little Browning.
 
Heh heh, yeah. :)

A pump or any manual repeater, is going to be, on average, in the long run, more reliable than a semi-auto (and usually a bit lighter too).

Therefore, one way to look at this is, pumps are the fastest you can get and still retain a "super-high" degree of reliability (as opposed to just "very high" degree of reliability of a quality semi-auto). If "super-high" is your thresshold degree of acceptable reliability (and we're only talking the difference of 3 or 4 *more* jams per 5K shots - or similar, but it's something to be sure), then in that light, pumps are where it's it, even for self-defense - espec. detach mag stuff like that Rem 7615P.

Also, even if the number of jams per 5K were the same, a manual repeater is quicker to "un-jam you" than a semi, and especially a pump. Usually just need to tilt, re-rack, and go. There's definitely something to be said for pumps, in my view, in both shotguns and rifles. In my mind, rifles even more so than shotguns, because a shotgun - holy moses, you WANT that semi-auto action to absorb some of that recoil; with a rifle, this is not as big of an issue.

So the appeal of my little IMI Timberwolf or that Rem 7615 or any pump is definitely grounded in some logic, I believe, for self-defense at least - not really hunting - or in a dual-purpose rifle where defense is part of the equation.

Don't forget that 7400 and 7600 Remington magazines are interchangeable. And some of the aftermarket ones were made in higher capacities like 10 rounds, and were directed primarily to the semi-auto market (7400s)... which this gives you the best of all worlds in a sense in a pump or semi - but here we're talking pumps - so you get extremely-high reliability and very very fast; just almost as fast as a semi, and "middle-capacity", reasonably-quick-change mags ....

That makes something like a 7600 in .243 win or similar a very formidable "just one" rifle for both hunting and self-defense. Or for that matter, a bigger chambering like .30-'06 or younameit. Now is the reliability going to be as high as a turnbolt in the grit? No, but it will be higher than a semi-auto, if only a little. And a wee bit lighter than a semi, too, which is very important in a "just one".

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a "just one" rifle (where you have only one for life to hunt and everything else with), if such a scenario were forced upon you for some reason, is really a tossup between semi-auto, pump, and turnbolt. If you think the likelihood of SHTF-WROL is high, semi. If you think the likelihood of SHTF-WROL is low, turnbolt (scout rifle). If you think it's somewhere in the middle, or unknown, then the pump is the best goldilocks middle ground of weight, speed, & reliability, particularly a 7600 where 10-round aftermarket mags can be had. Although since the 7600 mags have a bolt-hold-open tab, you'd have to somehow disable this I think to make them run in a 7400.

In my opinion..... Dang, now I want a 7600 in .243, or a 7615P, ha ha.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222928

Oh yeah, and of course rifles like the 7615P are popular in commie states with restrictions on semi-auto EBRs.... Note that this trend is increasing with states like NJ & CT following CA, IL, and others - so these may become bigger sellers, notwithstanding AR15 craze. I would NOT want to tangle with anyone with a 7615 in their hand with good mags and had practiced with it, under 100 yards (the accuracy is a bit iffy; it's a 75-100 yard gun, by most accounts).

Damn, how about this: 7615 P in 6.8 SPC? Heck yeah! :D
 
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I did image search that rifle (model 14) right after your post and got what you show there. Thanks. However, the magazine does NOT actually appear to corkscrew. It appears to be a straight mag with some spiral twisting to the mag walls
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I used to hunt with a guy who had one of the Rem pumps (cannot now recall if it was a 14 or a 141). Caliber was .30 Remington.

I can tell you the mag does work. IT is a straight tube, but the impressed (grooves) dimples do their job, and each round's bullet is not directly against the primer of the round ahead of it in the mag. The "dimples" press on the case body, in such a way as to slightly "tilt" the round, referenced to the centerline of the mag tube.

So, what you have with the Remington is a line of cartridges, each one tilted right or left (thanks to the "twists" in the tube, so that pointed bullets can be safely used.

Winchester & Marlin, the cartridges are in a perfectly straight line in the tube, each bullet nose against the primer of the round ahead of it. Pointed bullets cannot be safely used.
 
I used to hunt with a guy who had one of the Rem pumps (cannot now recall if it was a 14 or a 141). Caliber was .30 Remington.

I can tell you the mag does work. IT is a straight tube, but the impressed (grooves) dimples do their job, and each round's bullet is not directly against the primer of the round ahead of it in the mag. The "dimples" press on the case body, in such a way as to slightly "tilt" the round, referenced to the centerline of the mag tube.

So, what you have with the Remington is a line of cartridges, each one tilted right or left (thanks to the "twists" in the tube, so that pointed bullets can be safely used.

Winchester & Marlin, the cartridges are in a perfectly straight line in the tube, each bullet nose against the primer of the round ahead of it. Pointed bullets cannot be safely used.
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Thanks for verifying. Pedersen was a very clever inventor having made the 14 - 141 and several other guns for Remington, the Pedersen device for the WWI Springfield 1903, the Remington 45 Automatic Pistol, etc.

The Remington proprietary cartridges were 25, 30, 32, and 35 Rem which were rimless "clones" of the Winchester 25-35, 30-30, and 32 Special with the 35 Remington being a step beyond anything Winchester was offering. Plus the Remington rifles could use pointed bullets which would add effective range to the cartridge.
 
I've always wanted a pump-action remington in 308 or such for deer hunting but everyone of them that I picked up rattled while just handling the gun.

The same can be said for rem autos, the mag rattles. I make enough noise in the woods without clink clink.
 
Borrowed a Rem Mod. 14 to go deer hunting when I was 15 and loved carrying it, but didn't shoot at a deer. It was smooth, had great ergonomics and I've always loved that design, but have never owned one.

I'm a bolt-action guy, probably because I'm a handloader and an accuracy nut. Some other reasons for shooting a bolt gun is that they tend to work in cold, icy conditions and they're easier to keep clean and rust-free than most other rifle types.

I've shot in running deer and other speed competitions against some guys using pumps, levers, and semi-autos and won, because I had shot more than they did. For instance, one guy used a pump and brought the rifle down to pump it for each subsequent shot. Another using a semi-auto, forgot to chamber the first round. I've practiced working the bolt from the shoulder on long-action bolt guns and am much faster than most with the same action. Only three things are needed for bolt gun speed: 1. Practice, 2 Practice, and 3. PRACTICE!

Use snap caps to simulate live fire without hurting the firing pin.
 
Remington pump action 30-06 rifles are very common here in Pennsylvania. For the hunters that I know, it's the one rifle for deer and bear outlook. I've also heard this rifle referred to locally as the "Amish machine gun." Amish hunters make large party drive hunts for the most part.

Jack
 
A friend of mine had a 760 in '06 for a number of years, and it was incredibly accurate with plain ol' Remington factory ammo and a cheapie scope.
 
I think I know the reason

I sometimes wonder why those old 14a and 141's never caught on with more hunters. As both models had a good selection of calibers from 25 cal up to the potent 35 Rem. Maybe they had mechanical issues during their time. I just don't recall. I've only had one 141 model in my hands for a look see many years ago and at the time for as old as the rifle was it seemed to be quite functional but a little on the heavy side. YES!! I'll bet that's the reason they never caught on. >Weight!!< Savage's 99s Winchesters 94s & Marlin 36-336 were considered the deer rifle of choice back in the 40s thru the 60s because of their light weight quick handling abilities. I believe those Rem pumps {weighed near 8 lbs un-loaded.} no doubt that could have been their Achilles heel when speaking of those two obsolescent models. (14a & 141a) If I didn't already own a model 742 carbine in 30-06 I know would be interested in Rem's pump carbine. Maybe that {Black Rifle} 760-P model with its Ghost Ring Sighting. Who knows. As I have one vacancy spot in the safe yet._;)
 
The 14 and 141 had a machined receiver- the 760 series was folded from a sheet of steel with the "hangars" induction brazed in the ends of the u-shaped receiver stamping. Bottom line- cheaper to manufacture.
 
Winchester holds 2 patents from Browning on pump action rifles, one in .30 and one in a .44. They hold 44 patents from, they only used 10. The 2 pump rifles are 2 of the many they didn't use. I'm guessing they didn't want another manufacture getting them but didn't see a market for it.
 
I read an article several years ago about the most successful deer hunting family in the US... they lived somewhere in the northeast. As I recall, nearly every one of them used either a pump or semi-auto Remington in 30-06. I think their name was Benoit, and there were quite a few of them. I think I remember reading that they wouldn't use a bolt action, just the Remingtons.
 
The Benoits were/are fantastic deer hunters from Vermont, I believe. They've written articles and books on deer hunting that are fantastic. They hunt woods and get close shots, but may need more shots to finish one off if a twig or tree gets in the way.

I prefer a bolt-action. I can't recall when I've missed a deer on the first shot and got it on a second or third opportunity. That's made me very careful to get a clear shot for the first opportunity. I'd rather let a deer go than risk a deflected or poor shot, because I can hunt 6 days a week and it's more about enjoying hunting than getting meat.
 
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