Why are the "Hawken" style Rifles more popular
- Thread starter deerslayer303
- Start date
mehavey
You do realize your not Talking about actual hawkens rifles . Your speaking of modern manufactured rifles .
near all of what you list was not singular to the hawkens made rifles and are aspects of rifles that had been around for some time before the brothers started thier shop . For that mater well before thier uncles began making Long rifles . IE shorter barrel , hooked breech , large bore , heavy lock .........
If those rifles meet your standards , then so be it . Nothing wrong with that IMO good rifles . Most every one . But they are not for the most part anywhere near a Hawkens gun and therefore attest to thier own aspects .
So while what you say may very well be why the production models sell , its really more about nostalgia of a bill of goods that customers are being sold .
Its also why you don’t see any real production market for Long rifles as the vast majority that want such a rifle want a more reasonable representation. Thus while the production market has faulted for such guns to include the Plains rifle of the Hawkens Bothers . The custom and semi custom market has grown .
So if the Hawkens stand on their own merit then would not those who did market reasonable representations of those rifles still be producing them and thus have stood the test of time .
Sadly you have basically Pedersoli and its subs who market under Lyman which is actualy closer to a Biddle .
so what won out is cheeper , mass produced marketing
yep noelf2 there are 3 of the 6 that i posted . and they are the last 3 . the first 3 are all diffrent makers. IE NONE of the first 3 are Hawkens guns
but i would bet most would not even know unless told as for the most part they don’t resemble whats being marketed by production companies today
Barnacle Brad
The rifle that the NRA has is a wonderful piece . and their oppenion on the hawkens IMO is well worth reading .
"S. Hawken St Louis” is not a model . Instead it stands for Sam Hawkens . Made in the St Louis shop .. A very high % of the better gun makers signed their guns or stamped their guns with their names . Thus you get the S Hawkens or J Hawkens , J&S Hawkens and later just Hawkens .
There is however a St Louis Hawkens type which differed from the Plains rifles . Its the single pined rifle that I showed in in the photos .
I know that some suggest the 1803 as a possible base . However that doesn’t really make much since other then in its caliber . Simply put the lines just are not there . What im getting at is a lot of times unless someone goes completely out there , one can most times trace a linage of a design or school .
In other words if we took the Hawkens made rifle with the very nice , early patch box , cropped the photo so that one would not know it was a ½ stock . What conclusion would we then make based on the design ????
Would the 1803 even come to mind ?
You do realize your not Talking about actual hawkens rifles . Your speaking of modern manufactured rifles .
near all of what you list was not singular to the hawkens made rifles and are aspects of rifles that had been around for some time before the brothers started thier shop . For that mater well before thier uncles began making Long rifles . IE shorter barrel , hooked breech , large bore , heavy lock .........
If those rifles meet your standards , then so be it . Nothing wrong with that IMO good rifles . Most every one . But they are not for the most part anywhere near a Hawkens gun and therefore attest to thier own aspects .
So while what you say may very well be why the production models sell , its really more about nostalgia of a bill of goods that customers are being sold .
Its also why you don’t see any real production market for Long rifles as the vast majority that want such a rifle want a more reasonable representation. Thus while the production market has faulted for such guns to include the Plains rifle of the Hawkens Bothers . The custom and semi custom market has grown .
So if the Hawkens stand on their own merit then would not those who did market reasonable representations of those rifles still be producing them and thus have stood the test of time .
Sadly you have basically Pedersoli and its subs who market under Lyman which is actualy closer to a Biddle .
so what won out is cheeper , mass produced marketing
yep noelf2 there are 3 of the 6 that i posted . and they are the last 3 . the first 3 are all diffrent makers. IE NONE of the first 3 are Hawkens guns
but i would bet most would not even know unless told as for the most part they don’t resemble whats being marketed by production companies today
Barnacle Brad
The rifle that the NRA has is a wonderful piece . and their oppenion on the hawkens IMO is well worth reading .
"S. Hawken St Louis” is not a model . Instead it stands for Sam Hawkens . Made in the St Louis shop .. A very high % of the better gun makers signed their guns or stamped their guns with their names . Thus you get the S Hawkens or J Hawkens , J&S Hawkens and later just Hawkens .
There is however a St Louis Hawkens type which differed from the Plains rifles . Its the single pined rifle that I showed in in the photos .
I know that some suggest the 1803 as a possible base . However that doesn’t really make much since other then in its caliber . Simply put the lines just are not there . What im getting at is a lot of times unless someone goes completely out there , one can most times trace a linage of a design or school .
In other words if we took the Hawkens made rifle with the very nice , early patch box , cropped the photo so that one would not know it was a ½ stock . What conclusion would we then make based on the design ????
Would the 1803 even come to mind ?
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Barnacle Brad
New member
That is what I said...
I said that too...
Before Jacob Hawken relocated to St Louis, he worked in his family business making Kentucky rifles. He also worked in the Harpers Ferry Arsenal while the m1803 rifle was in full production. That he had a full understanding of both of these arms seems like a no brainer.
So if he was intimately familiar with the m1803, yes it does make sense that he would incorporate design elements from it, especially if customers wanted that for their needs (i.e. mountainous country mounted on a horse).
Do you think Hawken was somehow more familiar with european sporting rifles and how?
Also, what is your basis for John Johnstons notoriety with lever guns?
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Barnacle Brad
New member
This is so confusing to me. There are so few examples of Hawken rifles and the only "standard" Hawken seems to be what the poorest customer could afford or what was on the shelf. I come from an automotive background where we made custom trucks. In a normal day of production there were no two trucks alike. We started with a base model and then customers would add "furniture" according to the depth of their billfolds. What is the difference in gun customers in the early mid 1800s? Some folks could only afford a basic rifle, those with deep pockets wanted all the extras. So what is a real Hawken? The ones the average freeman could afford? Or the models a General Ashley could pay for? I will bet the base models sold way outnumbered the "one off" rifles the deep pockets could afford.
The modern reproductions, regardless of manufacturer, load whatever "extras" they can to appeal to their customers, the same as Hawken did in his time. The interpretations may vary, but they are based on a theme made popular at the little shop in St Louis...
swathdiver
New member
Captchee, the style of the second one is a Kentucky halfstock.
Model12Win
Moderator
Well for me personally, they just seem more practical.
For hunting and target shooting, the set trigger models make a lot of sense. Another big thing that I think might sway a good amount of folks is the cost and difficulty of procuring not only minie balls, but also musket caps.
Minie balls are expensive, unless you cast them yourself which most people don't. A .50 or .54 round ball is cheaper. No 11 percussion caps are much easier to find than musket caps and are usually cheaper as well. Yes I know the Hawkens use more powder, but for plinking or target shooting loads don't have to be 120 grains.
Also something like a Lyman Great Plains Rifle is quite a bit cheaper than the various rifled musket military repros out there... and I think it boils down to cost and practicality.
It's the reason why I didn't choose to pick up an 1861 Springfield repro. After thinking it over, a Lyman GPR just made so much more sense for me and my uses and they are still very beautiful and historic (I know not an authentic Hawken but still) and just drew me in even more.
I'd love to still get a rifled musket some day, with paper cartridges and a cartridge box and everything, but it's a lot of money to put together a setup like that and more to keep it fed.
JMHO,
YMMV.
For hunting and target shooting, the set trigger models make a lot of sense. Another big thing that I think might sway a good amount of folks is the cost and difficulty of procuring not only minie balls, but also musket caps.
Minie balls are expensive, unless you cast them yourself which most people don't. A .50 or .54 round ball is cheaper. No 11 percussion caps are much easier to find than musket caps and are usually cheaper as well. Yes I know the Hawkens use more powder, but for plinking or target shooting loads don't have to be 120 grains.
Also something like a Lyman Great Plains Rifle is quite a bit cheaper than the various rifled musket military repros out there... and I think it boils down to cost and practicality.
It's the reason why I didn't choose to pick up an 1861 Springfield repro. After thinking it over, a Lyman GPR just made so much more sense for me and my uses and they are still very beautiful and historic (I know not an authentic Hawken but still) and just drew me in even more.
I'd love to still get a rifled musket some day, with paper cartridges and a cartridge box and everything, but it's a lot of money to put together a setup like that and more to keep it fed.
JMHO,
YMMV.
FrontierGander
New member
I love going to the traditional ALR forum and posting, working on a HAWKEN!! and then showing pictures of a CVA. Gets them going every time! 
FrontierGander
New member
hey I dont think my cva hawken looks that bad. Especially since it wears a 32" .58cal barrel on her.
FrontierGander
New member
I've thinned it quite a bit in the wrist area, but other than that, not a whole lot of change other than the improvements i've added.
deerslayer303
New member
Yeah I'm with you Frontier, I don't think any of the modern Repros look bad at all. They are all very nice looking actually. Now I don't think a Springfield gives up anything to the Hawken style guns in the looks dept. I like the Barrel bands and all. I think loading and shooting minie balls would be some fun. You guys think if the price point of a repro Springfield was equal to say a GPR, would we see a difference in popularity?
bedbugbilly
New member
I think there are several factors . . .
One is "simplicity". Most folks getting in to shooting BP are getting their 'feet wet". A "Hawken" style (I'm being pretty general here) represents the half-stock percussion that was prevalent in the 1840s to the 1900s - I'm including such designs as Ohio style rifles, etc. For those that want to get involved in the historical aspect of "Rendezvous", etc. - they fit.
As far as military style - they are entirely different. A lot of folks shy away from the earlier styles as they are "smoothbores" but a good smoothbore can be accurate (plenty accurate for game whether it be rabbits or birds using shot or large game such as deer). Later models, such as the Mississippi, 1855, '61, etc. shoot mines rather than round ball (although you can shoot a patched ball in them). For some, they much prefer the "civilian" rather than the "military". Another thing is that many states allow "round ball" hunting but not "minie ball" hunting although that is quickly changing with the use of REAL slugs, etc.
I think another factor is that some folks are very shy towards flintlock - which is often vastly misunderstood. The idea of using a rock and priming powder versus a percussion seems to appear more "difficult". in reality, it's just a learning process and a good flintlock that is tuned will provide fast ignition and a flintlock rifle is just as accurate as a percussion rifle.
I have built rifles over the years and used to use a custom built Hawken for target shooting and deer hunting - the thought of lugging one around now at my age makes me break out in a sweat!
If I could keep just one "front stuffer" it would be my flintlock Fusin de Chase. Yes, it's longer than a Hawken but it's a lightweight "fusel", the lock is well tuned and gives fast ignition. As a smoothbore, it shoots plenty accurate and allows the choice of either a patched round ball or shot - ideal for anything from small game, varmints or deer.
The last thing that I think comes in to play is price. Hawke styles are mass produced and although can be on the expensive side, one is much cheaper than a custom built rifle or smoothbore. For those that want a good shooter for targets, cans or game - they allow a person to participate at a fairly reasonable price. Plus for hunters, it allows them to participate in not only regular firearm seasons but muzzleloading seasons as well.
Over the years, I've seen folks get "hung up" over the fact that they don't "have' a custom rifle like someone else. Like anything in this life - it's not about how much you have, it's about being able to "play the game" and have fun doing it. Production rifles like the Hawken styles provide that opportunity.
One is "simplicity". Most folks getting in to shooting BP are getting their 'feet wet". A "Hawken" style (I'm being pretty general here) represents the half-stock percussion that was prevalent in the 1840s to the 1900s - I'm including such designs as Ohio style rifles, etc. For those that want to get involved in the historical aspect of "Rendezvous", etc. - they fit.
As far as military style - they are entirely different. A lot of folks shy away from the earlier styles as they are "smoothbores" but a good smoothbore can be accurate (plenty accurate for game whether it be rabbits or birds using shot or large game such as deer). Later models, such as the Mississippi, 1855, '61, etc. shoot mines rather than round ball (although you can shoot a patched ball in them). For some, they much prefer the "civilian" rather than the "military". Another thing is that many states allow "round ball" hunting but not "minie ball" hunting although that is quickly changing with the use of REAL slugs, etc.
I think another factor is that some folks are very shy towards flintlock - which is often vastly misunderstood. The idea of using a rock and priming powder versus a percussion seems to appear more "difficult". in reality, it's just a learning process and a good flintlock that is tuned will provide fast ignition and a flintlock rifle is just as accurate as a percussion rifle.
I have built rifles over the years and used to use a custom built Hawken for target shooting and deer hunting - the thought of lugging one around now at my age makes me break out in a sweat!
If I could keep just one "front stuffer" it would be my flintlock Fusin de Chase. Yes, it's longer than a Hawken but it's a lightweight "fusel", the lock is well tuned and gives fast ignition. As a smoothbore, it shoots plenty accurate and allows the choice of either a patched round ball or shot - ideal for anything from small game, varmints or deer.The last thing that I think comes in to play is price. Hawke styles are mass produced and although can be on the expensive side, one is much cheaper than a custom built rifle or smoothbore. For those that want a good shooter for targets, cans or game - they allow a person to participate at a fairly reasonable price. Plus for hunters, it allows them to participate in not only regular firearm seasons but muzzleloading seasons as well.
Over the years, I've seen folks get "hung up" over the fact that they don't "have' a custom rifle like someone else. Like anything in this life - it's not about how much you have, it's about being able to "play the game" and have fun doing it. Production rifles like the Hawken styles provide that opportunity.
In the Spirit
As in many other subject, you have folks with opinions and opinionated folks. When it comes to the subject of Traditionals, we all have to make our own measure and ask the question, "Is it in the Spirit" of the frontiersmen. ..
Example; Is a Sidelock, flinter or percussion with a Ryanite stock, "In the Sprit"? Hardly ....
Be Safe !!!
As in many other subject, you have folks with opinions and opinionated folks. When it comes to the subject of Traditionals, we all have to make our own measure and ask the question, "Is it in the Spirit" of the frontiersmen. ..
Example; Is a Sidelock, flinter or percussion with a Ryanite stock, "In the Sprit"? Hardly ....
Be Safe !!!
Barnacle Brad
New member
My TC .50 Mountain Rifle