swathdiver
New member
Probably price and economy of shooting. It costs less to shoot 177 or 230 grain round ball than it does 500 grain minie balls. The guns themselves are usually twice as expensive and at around 2lbs heavier.
Why are the "Hawken" style Rifles more popular
- Thread starter deerslayer303
- Start date
Military style repros do not represent the same time period. Hawkens pre-date the U.S. Civil War by about 40 years. Liver Eating Johnson(who was Johnston, not Johnson.) predates the U.S. Civil War by 20 years. Anyway, when the fur trade era was happening(Up to the mid 19th Century), armies didn't use rifles, except by a few specific Regiments. Don't think there were any American Rifle Regiments.
FrontierGander
New member
shorter barrels, hooked breech makes for easy barrel removal for cleaning. They feel a lot better in the woods since its a shorter overall rifle. My kentucky feels odd while "sneaking" through the brush as its long.
I suppose if you look long enough, you can find an overweight Hawken.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoo...=SBC;MMcat104792580;cat104701680;cat104641380
The first one I found was 7.1 pounds in .50 and 6.1 in .54 .... the kit for the "St Louis Hawken" is 7 pounds .....
The modern, faster twist Hawkens made for hunting with saboted pistol bullets are lighter still, but we won't talk about them .....
FrontierGander
New member
A real Hawken in the day weighed 12 to 15lbs.
Yep but it still doesn’t change that movies like Jeremiah Johnson. Who by the way was truly known more for his lever action guns NOT a hawkens gun , which by the way seems to never have been made in the caliber suggested by the movie .
Movies like The Mountain Men , Man of the Mountains , Winter hawk… all became a base for the buck skinning movement with its image of a Fur Trapper clad in a fur skin hat , full buckskins and a so called Hawkens gun slung across his Spanish saddle .
Problem is that there is very little supporting such an image , be it the gun or the way of dress . However the movies ingrained it into our minds . Manufactures jumped on the wagon producing what they called a Hawkens Gun .
But as was said before , the hawkens didn’t make a hawkens gun , they made plains rifles , which were similar of earlier European sporting rifles . They were not alone however and as I said produce rather small qualities of less then 300 guns a year . Factually by their own records averaging more around 150 a year and most of those were destined for the south west fur trade NOT the Northern Rocky mountian fur trade . which is most often thought of when thinking of the so called Mountain men.
But again the Manufactures jumped in and started offering what they called a Hawkens gun . Funny thing , none looked like a Hawkens. Those that were very close , Like the Browning , Ithicas , CVA MT and couple others , Did not refer to their guns as hawkens .
Ironically until Deer Creek started reproducing the CVA mountain rifle and Lyman the GPR , the guns that did resemble True Hawkens made guns , had fell away . Thus leaving the CVA St Louis , the Thompson lines or Traditions .
So I find it very hard to accept that Hawkens stand on their own merit as that merit simply doesn’t exist . What does however exist is the misconception that every half stock was a Hawkens or that the hawkens set the line for the ½ stock design . Neither can be substantiated .
Here are a few photos or original guns which ones are hawkens , no fair cheeting
also can you pick the ones that were the most exspensive and most likly not within the price range of the avarge trapper ?
there has been allot of information put out and if one wants to actually start doing some research on the subject i would recommend the AMM web site and its links to documentation, a very good place to start its by no means the end all on the subject .
they also have some links to fur trade museums as well as their own online museum showing the most common items , to include guns .
http://www.mtmen.org/
but anyway . this isnt to say that the Hawklens made guns were not good guns . To say other wise would be a mistake . however that doesnt change the fact that makers like Derringer ,Leman , Lewis , Hummel , Derrick , and countless other makers from the east, were far more likly to to be seen
Last edited:
The original question is still, "Why are the "Hawken" style rifles more popular?"
Call them rutabegas if you want, but the salesguy won't know what you are talking about ...... ask for a "traditional Hawken style muzzleloader" and you'll get a half-stocked sidelock gun of about 7lbs, in .50 ro 54. caliber, with a slow twist for shooting patched round balls, somewhat shorter than the "Kentucky/Pennsylvania Long Rifles", I'll betcha .....
Even if the "Hawken" rifles are misnamed or even totally historically innacurate, they are more popular than the military style repros ...... the question posed was "Why?"
Are the "Hawken style" rifles selling more because of Hollywood, or because they are a practical tool that does what the owners want it to do at a lower price than other muzzle-loading guns on the market? Or some of both?
Call them rutabegas if you want, but the salesguy won't know what you are talking about ...... ask for a "traditional Hawken style muzzleloader" and you'll get a half-stocked sidelock gun of about 7lbs, in .50 ro 54. caliber, with a slow twist for shooting patched round balls, somewhat shorter than the "Kentucky/Pennsylvania Long Rifles", I'll betcha .....
Even if the "Hawken" rifles are misnamed or even totally historically innacurate, they are more popular than the military style repros ...... the question posed was "Why?"
Are the "Hawken style" rifles selling more because of Hollywood, or because they are a practical tool that does what the owners want it to do at a lower price than other muzzle-loading guns on the market? Or some of both?
The 50 & 54 cal rifles have pretty consistent bore sizes. The 58cal rifled muskets are all over the place if you want to shoot minies. I have 5 (that's FIVE!) 58 cal sidelock muzzle stuffers. Two want a larger minie than the other 3. A patched ball can be fitted easier by varying the patch thickness. For minie balls you need standard or oversize molds. The minies are hard to cast without voids or improper filling. If you use an undersized minie it can slide down the barrel if you point the muzzle down and that can raise hell if you don't reseat it. before firing. However if you get the right fit and load worked up they can be very accurate and knock down anything you shoot at.
[qoute]...... Oh Lord.
Words fail me. [/qoute]
they should not fail you because your not comparing anywhere near what a true hawkens by using mass produced rifles as a comparison .
And where is the answer to my question , which one of the original rifles I posted is a hawkens Gun ??????
If words truly did fail you and the guns was being judged on its own merit surly it would be a simple and easy question would it not ?.
As to why the military versions are not as popular . I think that depends on the era your looking at .
In cap lock , where is the market ?
Earlier flintlock , I would ask the same question . The market is just geared more to re-enactors vs. hunters with the total production gun market being more to hunters who seem to be more then willing these day to go towards the inline .
Words fail me. [/qoute]
they should not fail you because your not comparing anywhere near what a true hawkens by using mass produced rifles as a comparison .
And where is the answer to my question , which one of the original rifles I posted is a hawkens Gun ??????
If words truly did fail you and the guns was being judged on its own merit surly it would be a simple and easy question would it not ?.
As to why the military versions are not as popular . I think that depends on the era your looking at .
In cap lock , where is the market ?
Earlier flintlock , I would ask the same question . The market is just geared more to re-enactors vs. hunters with the total production gun market being more to hunters who seem to be more then willing these day to go towards the inline .
No, the answers are clear:
In comparison to all other traditional 18th/19th-century designs [notwithstanding new wash-your-mouth-out In-Lines],
today's "Hawken" style rifles are
- More straight-forwardly functional in design
- More straight-forwardly functional in appearance
- More straight-forwardly functional in handling
- Simpler to pull/replace the barrel (for either cleaning or caliber exchange)
- Have generally-available (semi-drop-in) replacement locks/parts/sights
- Have better/more flexible/adjustable OEM iron sights
- Are generally able to incorporate 2nd-party aperature sights w/o major surgery
- Have the greatest range of drop-in aftermarket calibers (32-54) and twists
... and still maintain high adherence to traditional form/fit/function
In comparison to all other traditional 18th/19th-century designs [notwithstanding new wash-your-mouth-out In-Lines],
today's "Hawken" style rifles are
- More straight-forwardly functional in design
- More straight-forwardly functional in appearance
- More straight-forwardly functional in handling
- Simpler to pull/replace the barrel (for either cleaning or caliber exchange)
- Have generally-available (semi-drop-in) replacement locks/parts/sights
- Have better/more flexible/adjustable OEM iron sights
- Are generally able to incorporate 2nd-party aperature sights w/o major surgery
- Have the greatest range of drop-in aftermarket calibers (32-54) and twists
... and still maintain high adherence to traditional form/fit/function
Barnacle Brad
New member
If you swap out the flint lock for a cap lock, and the rectangular patch box for an oval one in this M1803, what do you have?
The M1803 found favor among the early trappers of the Rocky Mts and the need for a similar arm for civilian use was made known to gun makers. Jacob Hawkens first "St Louis" rifles were styled after the Kentucky rifle. Eventually the barrel was shortened and the half stock adopted as did other makers. The big difference between the Hawken half stock and the others, was that Hawken persisted with the heavy calibers while the others maintained traditional calibers of the Kentucky rifle. (Ref "Firearms, Traps, and Tools of The Mountain Men" , by Carl P. Russell)
The question we will never have an answer to is, what part if any, did the M1803 play in the design of the mountain or plains rifle? Surely there is more of a connection to this U.S. military rifle, than to any European arms...
Last edited:
Barnacle Brad
New member
Plains Rifle
At the end of this video the narrator explains the original "Plains Rifle" barrel is simply stamped "S. Hawken St. Louis". So apparently Hawken did make Hawkens Rifles. Without a model designation - what else would you call a repro?
In my mind, what makes these rifles popular is the association with the men, the Mountain Men, the Jim Bridgers, the Kit Carsons and the John Johnstons. The men who stood in the teeth of death in some of the most harsh conditions and perilous times, and came out with their lives. The testament to the Hawken is that some of the rifles still survive long after their bearers passed.
To me it's not about a movie, it's about a feeling I get when I look at the Rockies or the Big Horns and think of how those guys felt when they first set eyes on them. Romantic? Why not!
At the end of this video the narrator explains the original "Plains Rifle" barrel is simply stamped "S. Hawken St. Louis". So apparently Hawken did make Hawkens Rifles. Without a model designation - what else would you call a repro?
In my mind, what makes these rifles popular is the association with the men, the Mountain Men, the Jim Bridgers, the Kit Carsons and the John Johnstons. The men who stood in the teeth of death in some of the most harsh conditions and perilous times, and came out with their lives. The testament to the Hawken is that some of the rifles still survive long after their bearers passed.
To me it's not about a movie, it's about a feeling I get when I look at the Rockies or the Big Horns and think of how those guys felt when they first set eyes on them. Romantic? Why not!