why are my groups so terrible?

I'm gonna save this thread and post a link to it everytime some idiot recommends a centerfire as a first gun. Live and learn and now you are stuck with it.

To your problem....... As stated dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. That, and relax. A lot (dare I say most?) of the best shooters in history knew nothing about proper technique or stance. Go out and shoot and have some fun. Don't make it work.

LK
 
I highly recommend you sell or trade for something you can shoot properly. I went through several rentals before settling on the CZ 75. Having owned a CZ in 40, I can say now I absolutely hate the caliber and much prefer 9 or 45.
 
yea. its ok man. you had the right intentions anyway. I suggest you go try a 9mm, and try a 45, and see the difference because there IS one.
45 has less recoil than the 40. you might be better with it, you never know. 40's are popular if you aren't into your 22 anymore maybe someone will trade you for a 21, or a 45 ACP equivalent.
But I suggest you try a different caliber and really get yourself something you know you like instead of betting on hype. Thats what glock is. hype. not trying to do the glock bashing thing because i really don't care either way, but you can research any gun and it will have good AND bad about it. Especially if you never even held it before you picked it up. Do yourself the justice and go take the time to find the gun for you.
 
Obviously, you're going to have to learn not to anticipate the shot. That's critical.

If it were me, I'd try shooting the gun "benchrest style" over sandbags or the like, carefully squeezing off each shot, for about a mag-full or so. The point is to prove to yourself what the gun is capable of with your skills mostly factored out. Then you can work to get your skills up to the level of the gun, with much more confidence than you have now about whether it's the gun's fault - although you've mostly figured out it's you, you've still got nagging suspicions otherwise, don't you?

Now. Once you've got this anticipation thing nailed, it's time to go check out the best accessory you can spend $125 on that bolts straight onto a Glock:

http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/index2.htm

It changes *everything*. You don't focus on the front sight anymore - you focus on the target, and it feels like the sights (and gun) line up behind whatever you're looking at "automatically". You don't have to spend conscious thought on sight alignment - you just focus on targets, threats and trigger control.

At a minimum, read this:

http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/pdf/Handguns_2008June.pdf

The front sight is of conventional height, so a Glock equipped this way still fits in standard holsters. And no, this is NOT a normal Ghost Ring sight setup, it works both differently and better than a Ghost Ring because your eye can still deal with it even when both the front and rear are blurry. That's what allows target-focus, which changes the whole game. It's far easier to keep both eyes open, you can tell if somebody pulls a small gun or a cellphone, and if they do pull a gun you don't have to shorten up your eye's focus before shooting accurately. Speed of reaction to a threat is much higher, and your ability to ID a real threat is much more accurate. And the speed with which you can switch from target to target is just astonishing, because you don't have to switch your eye's focus from far to near and back and forth which takes time you might not have.
 
"....I also noticed that I was almost jerking the gun forward in anticipation of recoil. honestly, I'm not scared of my gun, or its recoil, it's just something that I'm doing without even thinking about it...."


That's still flinching. It isnt a matter of being afraid of it, its anticipating it before it happens which is what you are doing. It's a subconcious reaction. A good dry fire regimen will help deal with that, as would a lot of rimfire practice.

Whether you realize it or not, and though you feel you like it, the 40 may be more than you can comfortably and effectively shoot at this point. You may overcome it with training and practice, or you may not. It's more important to be able to shoot well, than what you ar shooting. Misses or poor hits, no matter what round/magic bullet, are not better than a good hit with a "lesser" round. If you don't start a dramatic improvement with the .40 after getting a good dryfire regimen going, and shooting your friends .22 for a few weeks, I'd seriously consider trading for a G-19 in 9mm. They feel like an overgrown .22 to me. .40's are a bit more sharp in recoil. Don't get hung up in the numbers, get hung up in effective shooting.

I was started on .22's, and probably shot at least 40,000 to 60,000 rds of .22's in handguns before doing any amount of centerfire shooting. I think it makes a huge difference. I wouldnt suggest anyone start out on a centerfire handgun. Perhaps some have done it and done decent shooting, but I also see many posts by guys that say they get X size groups @ 10 or 15 yards, and are happy with them. I feel a fair shooter should be able to keep groups under 2" @ 25 yards to get excited, or feel they're really getting somewhere (yeah, thats standing on your hind feet, no rest). Tons of rimfire shooting in a high quality handgun, and good instruction, can make that realistic. If you're serious about learning to shoot, rimfire can get you hitting things thrown in the air, relatively small targets at long range, (like out to a couple hundred yards) running small game, empty shotgun shells in fast shooting, etc. None of those things are the least bit unrealistic if you're motivated.

Edit: was just looking at the goshen site. Both eyes should be open in any sighting not just with theirs. I'm not convinced of the goshen sight system. It looks like its been around for a couple years, and so far, hasn't taken the world by storm. Results come from mastering the basics, and experience, not gadget sights. I'll read more about it later.
 
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...the noise doesn't bother me and neither does the recoil.
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At some level loud noises and things that move abruptly on their own bother all of us, including you.

If they didn't, people wouldn't flinch at loud noises or when firing guns but it's a nearly universal problem that has to be trained out of a person.

It's nothing that anyone should be ashamed of, it's just a normal reflex that has to be dealt with via training.
 
i'll have to see if I can find a gun with those hex sights on it to see it up close. it's interesting to say the least.

and jeez, 2" at 25 yds.?!?! i think I'd ask for the guy's autograph!:eek:
 
I did more than read about it. I did my own homebrew clone :).

3630584151_db71ea1b65_b.jpg


That's what I call the "Mk2" - I just finished the "Mk4" after the "Mk3" was such a mess :). The current incarnation is much nicer, I have a good solid steel *chrome* tube instead of the too-delicate brass. And the front base is now a LOT better looking than that mess...

Real Goshen Hexsites achieve total blackness front and rear with high-tech polymer or polymer coatings. Working with lesser materials (my rear aperture is a chopped-up piece of socket!), I found that a full-length tube gave me "ultra black" sights :). Mine is known "affectionately" as the "Goshdarn Hacksite" :D. But seriously, it *works*, and surprisingly at all ranges. I can hit man-sized targets 100% of the time at 100yds, and consistently keep it in 4" or so at 25 shooting 1 shot per second, full house 357s with more power on tap than the 40S&W. (Then again, this sucker breaks the scales at around 42oz - it's a Ruger "New Vaquero" in 357, basically a modern replica of an 1873 Colt.)

Tim at Goshen asks that anybody who wants to homebrew one get permission first :).
 
The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth, press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."


By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger. Of course the gun will wobble some on the target. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target.

Also, work on follow through. Be aware of where on the target the front sight is as the shot breaks and watch the front sight lift off that point as the gun recoils – all the time maintaining focus on the front sight.

Also, while practice in very important, remember that practice doesn’t make perfect. It’s “PERFECT practice makes perfect.” More frequent practice shooting fewer rounds, but concentrating hard on what you’re doing, will be more productive than less frequent, higher round count practice.

Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer falls.

Finally, some instruction is always a good idea. I try to take classes from time to time; and I always learn something new.

Think: front sight, press, surprise.
 
It's all true, but...

Lots of dryfire practice.
As Gil Hebard put it, the key to accuracy is applying pressure to the trigger without disturbing the sight picture until the gun goes off.
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What you've been doing is training yourself to flinch--now you're going to have to untrain yourself and retrain yourself not to flinch.
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Practice squeezing the trigger until the trigger breaks (which should come as a surprise.) Here's the important part: The sights should be exactly where they were prior to trigger break as after the trigger break. Make sure you are breathing during this exercise. This will help with your shooting and follow-thru.
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Plus many more quotes from this thread, but what you have to make sure that you do is to do the same thing at the range with live ammo as you do when you are doing dry fire practice. I have been shooting about as long as you have and my technique at home when dry firing is flawless. I focus on the front sight and keep it on my "target" all of the way through the trigger squeeze and the follow through. When I would get to the range however, I found that I was pulling the trigger instead of squeezing the trigger. Once I learned to really slow down at the range and concentrate on what I was doing, my accuracy went way up. I have gone from four bulls-eye hits out of fifty shots, to twenty five bulls-eye hits out of fifty shots, at seven yards in six weeks of shooting (I go about once a week). Slow down, think about what you are doing, line up your sights and get your sight picture, squeeze the trigger while keeping that front sight as steady as possible. Relax, think, concentrate. It is so easy to forget the basics when you are in the heat and excitement of firing your gun.

And most importantly, don't get so focused on accuracy and groupings that you have taken all of the fun out of it. When it is not fun any more, your accuracy will suffer also.

And just on the off chance that it is the gun or caliber that you are using, see if you can borrow or rent a 9mm and see if, while still concentrating on the basics, your accuracy improves with a different gun.
 
I finally found exactly the right size steel tube, and figured out a much better cosmetic answer to that damned front mount point :).

4220697054_ed2e6ae64c.jpg
 
nolaOE800 said:
my groups are about
14-16'' at 25 yds.
8-10'' at 15 yds.
6'' at 10 yds.
and usually 4" or less under 10 yds.
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You've had the gun a "few months" and go the the range twice a month. I'd say your group size is fine for your amount of experience. We didn't all grab our first handgun and start punching 2" groups the first time we went to the range. (I can say that as a fact since I certainly didn't, I'm still looking for my first smallish group at 25 yards offhand.)

As has already been mentioned pull your target back to 7 yards or so and stay there until you are consistently shooting 3" or so before moving farther out. Dry fire as much as you can and when you're at the range pull the trigger in such a way that the gun going off is something of a surprise. In other words, don't jerk the trigger back when the sights wander over the bullseye. That was my biggest mistake early on.
 
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I'm gonna save this thread and post a link to it everytime some idiot recommends a centerfire as a first gun. Live and learn and now you are stuck with it.
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Nothing wrong with having a rimfire for a first pistol.

On the other hand, it's been proven many a time, and witnessed by me, that a student with no pistol experience what so ever can learn proper technique quite well and excell in the course. Not limited to men, either.

We can all agree that starting a beginner out on a heavy caliber with lots of recoil is a travesty.:cool:
 
I would suggest you shoot slowly and carefully off sand bags at the range for a while to build up your confidence out to 10 or 15 yds max. You need to convince yourself that it is you and not the gun. Once you know it is your technique and not the gun, then begin some regimented shooting at one distance until you imporove. Use two hands. No sense in just spraying bullets around a target if it never changes.

Shoot at a small target or aiming point. Shoot at a distance that you can comfortably see your target very well. You should be able to do a bit better on the groups, but honestly it takes a while to learn how to shoot and what works for you. My first centerfire experience was shooting a Colt Python with 357 mag loads. I didn't do very well for a while and I had absolutely no background or formal training on handgun shooting.

I have a Glock 23 and have no particular problem shooting it fairly well. I usually don't shoot past 25 yds with it. There doesn't seem to be much point in that. I think they are excellent guns for self defense.

It would help you to learn the fundamentals with a 22 pistol.
 
Wow, if money was a consideration a better gun to start with would have been a used 4" revolver for $200 rather than the $500 Glock, but if you really wanted the semi-auto a 9mm Ruger P95 would still have saved you $200 that you could use for ammo. You could always sell your Glock, buy a Ruger and have a lot of money left over for ammo. Who advised you to start with a Glock?
 
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I'd strongly second the recommendation to get the Advantage Arms or another high-quality .22 RF conversion unit. Trigger contol is the key factor and, while dry-fire practice is a Good Thing, it's MO that being able to see the tangible results of every repetition on an actual target provides a more comprehensive learning experience.
 
i think I might be able to go to the range today.
I'm definitely going to try all the things that you guys have mentioned.
hopefully I'll be able to snag my buddy's Mark III today also.
 
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