In the practical world, 1 MOA at 400 yards is about 4" ..... the difference between my start load (around 2700 f/sec) and my load (2900) is 8" of drop and 2" of wind drift (10 mph crosswind)...... not even mentioning the fact that the start load shoots like crap outa my gun.
Why all the "hype" about velocity?
- Thread starter tobnpr
- Start date
In the practical world, 1 MOA at 400 yards is about 4" ..... the difference between my start load (around 2700 f/sec) and my load (2900) is 8" of drop and 2" of wind drift (10 mph crosswind)...... not even mentioning the fact that the start load shoots like crap outa my gun.
Clifford L. Hughes
New member
tobnpr:
For thirty or so years I loaded at near maximun velocity with pretty good results. One day I experimented with a 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tip in my M-70 Winchester, 30/06. I loaded it down to 2,600 fps and I now shoot 3/4 inch five shot groups. I guess for me, now, slower is better.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
For thirty or so years I loaded at near maximun velocity with pretty good results. One day I experimented with a 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tip in my M-70 Winchester, 30/06. I loaded it down to 2,600 fps and I now shoot 3/4 inch five shot groups. I guess for me, now, slower is better.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Reductio Ad Adsurdum
The exception for competition shooting have be noted... again and again and...
Thing is, in most practical applications*, the level of precision being talked about here is unnecessary, and in fact, counter productive ... in the last couple of days there have been a couple of of new guys come on and ask about the best "long range" rifle for hunting, etc ..... and speaking of maybe spending a couple thousand dollars on a gun and a maybe as much on optics..... when they probably don't have the skills to appreciate them anywhere but on a bench, and then only on a flat known distance range ......
..... Those thousands of dollars would be so much better spent learning to "shoot up to" the rifle they have, without a bench....
The same goes with the handloaders and the quest of the sub MOA load: To think of all the time and money spent trying this bullet and that powder at this or that OAL to try to shrink a group by a whole 1/4"...... While it's nice to have it, and truly much better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it- 1/4" at 100 yards is pretty meaningless to any but competition benchrest shooters and .... well, handloading hobbyists. For most practical applications, a one inch 100 yard group is like having a Ferrari in the 'burbs ...... expensive to get, difficult to maintain, and not as usefull as a minivan. It sure impresses the other fellas you hang out with though ..... if you are into hanging out with fellas that are impressed with that sort of thing ..... me, I gotta haul groceries and kids, and don't want to worry about door dings....
...as for doctors and precision - 95% of all medical issues can be solved without a doctor, if a bit of knoledge is acted on in a timely manner.... That is partly why the Doctor has several levels of Helath Care Professionals that see the patient before them, to sort out the people that really need to see a Doctor..... EMT's, Paramedics, Nurses ..... and a good part of the time, all the doc does is come in and check the work of the previous levels of care .....
* bench rest shooting is not a practical application
Greg Mercurio
New member
OP: Because you live on a world that is bounded by Newtonian physics:
In classical mechanics, the kinetic energy is given by the equation
E = 1/2m(V squared)
where m is the mass and v is the speed (or the velocity) of the body.
Since the kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed, an object doubling its speed has four times as much kinetic energy. It's the delivery of kinetic energy to the vitals of the target that does the killing. Small increases in velocity yield large changes in energy.
In classical mechanics, the kinetic energy is given by the equation
E = 1/2m(V squared)
where m is the mass and v is the speed (or the velocity) of the body.
Since the kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed, an object doubling its speed has four times as much kinetic energy. It's the delivery of kinetic energy to the vitals of the target that does the killing. Small increases in velocity yield large changes in energy.
Not what was originally posted, no. Equally valid.
Velocity is just another way to express power, and what the largest segment of Americans buying ammo want is game anchored Dead Right There. It's prevents suffering by the game, and a lot of work and embarrassment by the hunter losing it. Accuracy is nice, but no sense paying extra for it when it's not needed.
They both have their places in both situations. I myself prefer accuracy over velocity every time. I'm into the long range game. Accuracy deviates over distance and unless your a world class shooter why not take the most accurate load? I'm not going to hurt my chances @ 1000yds because i took a group that 50fps faster but opened up 1/2 an inch. Especially since my current load still holds supersonic at 1000yds, given the conditions (no altitude around here) it will hold to 1200yds.
In a hunting situation sure that 1/2 a inch wider for more enegry down range might be considered.
You need both depending on what your doing.
Depending on the BC of the bullet velocity can be taken with in some extent less importance.
In a hunting situation sure that 1/2 a inch wider for more enegry down range might be considered.
You need both depending on what your doing.
Depending on the BC of the bullet velocity can be taken with in some extent less importance.
When I started reloading mid 60's couldn't afford to buy chronograph and I managed for 17yrs before I got one. Even back then you heard near max was the best loads. I got my first 7mag 1967 and loading manual were pretty much like they are today but the big different was start to max loads. I was loading the old H-4831 and my start to max was 7gr and IMR-4350 was 8gr and my 243 was 6gr cases like 222mag 3gr.
Most of my good groups were near max or max and after I got the chronograph I check my reloads velocity against the manuals and I was pretty close and I never redid any those loads for my hunting or varmint rifle.
I sure hope how I reload a case counts for some of my accuracy besides having a good rifle. I do place more on the accuracy side than the velocity in one of my hunting/varmint rifles. I had a new 222mag build got it last year never been over a chronograph and I'll get to it sometime this year.
Most of my good groups were near max or max and after I got the chronograph I check my reloads velocity against the manuals and I was pretty close and I never redid any those loads for my hunting or varmint rifle.
I sure hope how I reload a case counts for some of my accuracy besides having a good rifle. I do place more on the accuracy side than the velocity in one of my hunting/varmint rifles. I had a new 222mag build got it last year never been over a chronograph and I'll get to it sometime this year.
Having a load that I can count on in the field is more important to me than one that makes the guy next to me on the firing line envious of my abilities!
With that said, I load my cartidges to near max so I can aim and shoot without thinking to much about bullet path, etc., yet still have confidence that the bullet will go were I send it!
Try bailing off your horse, pulling your rifle from the scabard, aiming and pulling the triger before that 350" bull elk runs into the timber at 300 yards! You are aiming at a target that is aproximatly 12", you don't need 1/2 MOA. You need a load that is going to get to the elk before he jumps and has enough energy when it gets there to do massive damage!
I have hunted with guys who could put them in the same hole off the bench, but couldn't get a shot off at an elk because they were trying to adjust their scope, or set their bypods, or look through their range finders, etc. And some that did get their shot off, but because the aminal moved, they missed their point of aim.
A bullet traveling 400 fps faster than another is going to reach it's target first, with more energy. In that fraction of a second between the trigger pull and imact, if the animal jumps you can miss your point of aim by more than the MOA of your rifle. I am all for getting there faster, with less thought and less chance of the target moving!
With that said, I load my cartidges to near max so I can aim and shoot without thinking to much about bullet path, etc., yet still have confidence that the bullet will go were I send it!
Try bailing off your horse, pulling your rifle from the scabard, aiming and pulling the triger before that 350" bull elk runs into the timber at 300 yards! You are aiming at a target that is aproximatly 12", you don't need 1/2 MOA. You need a load that is going to get to the elk before he jumps and has enough energy when it gets there to do massive damage!
I have hunted with guys who could put them in the same hole off the bench, but couldn't get a shot off at an elk because they were trying to adjust their scope, or set their bypods, or look through their range finders, etc. And some that did get their shot off, but because the aminal moved, they missed their point of aim.
A bullet traveling 400 fps faster than another is going to reach it's target first, with more energy. In that fraction of a second between the trigger pull and imact, if the animal jumps you can miss your point of aim by more than the MOA of your rifle. I am all for getting there faster, with less thought and less chance of the target moving!
603Country
New member
Sure are lots of differing opinions. My feelings are a blend of what I've read in this thread. In order of priority, I want the most accurate load I can find and I want it in as fast a load as I can find. And, I don't want it to be so hot that my cases can't be reloaded more than a couple of times. As for somebody's statement that their best loads are at or near max, that's the same thing I've found in my 220 (using 4064), my 270 (using 4831sc), and my 223 (using AA2230). Of course it took a lot of experimentation to get there, but I didn't mind. The only rifle that shoots a mild load right now is the short barreled 260. I want as much accuracy I can get, but the present load from the short barrel is a bit below the speed I'd like. I put accuracy first in my list of priorities because I like the feeling of knowing (even if I'm kidding myself) that the bullet will go exactly where I want it to go. It's no big deal at 100 yards, but the next shot might be at 400 yards or more.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
IMR3031 is a good powder for short barreled 7-08. It's what I load in my 15" Encore. I use it because it produces good velocity but minimizes muzzle blast due to having lower muzzle pressure than "traditional" powders that might be used in longer barrels.
Good discussion. Three pages, and no infighting, and it's not locked...
I get how the speed of burn of a propellant's powder will affect velocity, pressures, etc. based on barrel length; at least to a point.
But what I am still not "getting" is how is the bullet's consistency of flight path impacted by the load?
Take a simple example. I find that 43.5 grains is optimal. 44 grains causes the groups to open up a bit. Nothing has changed, except a tiny bit more muzzle velocity.
I understand general concepts such as bullet stabilization, over-rotation, and the like. But that's not in play here. What is it about a grain or two- or fraction of- powder, that affects accuracy? How does even slight variations in velocity affect bullet flight?
I'm not referring to point of impact- obviously that's going to change.
I'm referring to accuracy, or better yet- consistency (group size). Given that a bullet is properly stabilized, why is there a variation in group size often with very small changes in velocity?
I get how the speed of burn of a propellant's powder will affect velocity, pressures, etc. based on barrel length; at least to a point.
But what I am still not "getting" is how is the bullet's consistency of flight path impacted by the load?
Take a simple example. I find that 43.5 grains is optimal. 44 grains causes the groups to open up a bit. Nothing has changed, except a tiny bit more muzzle velocity.
I understand general concepts such as bullet stabilization, over-rotation, and the like. But that's not in play here. What is it about a grain or two- or fraction of- powder, that affects accuracy? How does even slight variations in velocity affect bullet flight?
I'm not referring to point of impact- obviously that's going to change.
I'm referring to accuracy, or better yet- consistency (group size). Given that a bullet is properly stabilized, why is there a variation in group size often with very small changes in velocity?
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Tobnpr,
A significant factor in accuracy is barrel harmonics/vibration.
There is a vibration created by the ignition of the powder that propagates back and through the barrel at the speed of sound in steel (really fast). When the wave is at the muzzle it causes the tip to oscillate, which affects where the barrel is pointed if the bullet exits at that moment.
The wave travels up and down the barrel several times before the bullet exits. Changes in powder (velocity) affect where that wave is when the bullet leaves the muzzle.
For more on this, see Dan Newberry's OCW load development:
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
I don't develop loads beyond 100 yards but I routinely shoot them at targets and woodchucks at ranges out to 400 yards and occasionally lob one at 500+. Never shot paper beyond 410.
My 204 groups approximately double in MOA terms from 100 to 410.
A significant factor in accuracy is barrel harmonics/vibration.
There is a vibration created by the ignition of the powder that propagates back and through the barrel at the speed of sound in steel (really fast). When the wave is at the muzzle it causes the tip to oscillate, which affects where the barrel is pointed if the bullet exits at that moment.
The wave travels up and down the barrel several times before the bullet exits. Changes in powder (velocity) affect where that wave is when the bullet leaves the muzzle.
For more on this, see Dan Newberry's OCW load development:
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
I don't develop loads beyond 100 yards but I routinely shoot them at targets and woodchucks at ranges out to 400 yards and occasionally lob one at 500+. Never shot paper beyond 410.
My 204 groups approximately double in MOA terms from 100 to 410.