Why all the "hype" about velocity?
- Thread starter tobnpr
- Start date
I experiment with different loads. I settle on the most accurate load and then keep adding powder and velocity until accuracy starts to get worse. I usually find the most accurate load is very near or right at listed factory max loads.
You really need a chronograph if you are reloading. It will be the best $100 you spend.
Without a chronograph you have no idea what velocities you are getting. Every rifle is different. You could be 150 fps slower than the books say you should be. You could be 150 fps faster than the books say and it could be unsafe in your rifle. That load might be right on the money and perfectly safe in another rifle.
You really need a chronograph if you are reloading. It will be the best $100 you spend.
Without a chronograph you have no idea what velocities you are getting. Every rifle is different. You could be 150 fps slower than the books say you should be. You could be 150 fps faster than the books say and it could be unsafe in your rifle. That load might be right on the money and perfectly safe in another rifle.
4runnerman
New member
I have found the same-Accuracy and speed are not so tied together as some think. I have slowed my 308 down to 2650 witha 175 Serria Match and found accuracy is unreal. I only hunt yotes and dogs so the speed thing is unimportant to me. Im sue there is a combo in there that pretty much combines the two though.
UtopiaTexasG19
New member
"You really need a chronograph if you are reloading. It will be the best $100 you spend."
A chronograph is a great tool to see where you are in velocity range especially when making your own re-loads for the simple reason that your barrel lenght for a particular load is most probably not what was used in the published data and your velocities will be different. A few months back I posted on some forums that I was not getting the velocities from my re-loads for my .223 and was reminded by other posters that the pressures in my 16" barrel were very different from the 22" barrel used in the literature I was quoting for velocities. Having my own chronograph and keeping my own records for powder charges and bullet weights/shapes/brands gives me figures for my particular barrel I can use in the future.
A chronograph is a great tool to see where you are in velocity range especially when making your own re-loads for the simple reason that your barrel lenght for a particular load is most probably not what was used in the published data and your velocities will be different. A few months back I posted on some forums that I was not getting the velocities from my re-loads for my .223 and was reminded by other posters that the pressures in my 16" barrel were very different from the 22" barrel used in the literature I was quoting for velocities. Having my own chronograph and keeping my own records for powder charges and bullet weights/shapes/brands gives me figures for my particular barrel I can use in the future.
I'm not obsessed with speed, but I want my rifles to perform. If I can't get accuracy around 3100 fps using a 130 grain bullet from my .270 why would I use it over another rifle like the .30-06. I just don't want my rifles performance to be lacking, I don't want a .30-06 to perform like a .30-30 nor do I want my .204 Ruger to shoot like a.223 Rem.
So if I can't get the performance I want I change things up, until I get the performance where I want. I have sold a few rifles because I couldn't get them to perform how I wanted them to. Other times I've been able to do better than book without going over max loads listed or showing pressure signs in my rifles. Most of the time I'm able to match the standard performance levels of the given cartridge and barrel length I'm using.
So if I can't get the performance I want I change things up, until I get the performance where I want. I have sold a few rifles because I couldn't get them to perform how I wanted them to. Other times I've been able to do better than book without going over max loads listed or showing pressure signs in my rifles. Most of the time I'm able to match the standard performance levels of the given cartridge and barrel length I'm using.
Accuracy is the key / speed and accuracy is even better. If I can't get velocity and accuracy out of a rifle it finds a new home.
There is only one way to be sure what your velocity is, you must chronograph it, once you determine the most accurate load, you gotta do a speed check. It will open up a whole new world for you.
There is only one way to be sure what your velocity is, you must chronograph it, once you determine the most accurate load, you gotta do a speed check. It will open up a whole new world for you.
BPowderkeg
Moderator
hummm !! learn something new every day, i'll have to remember that! how is it pronounced ??
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
jeh neh say kwa "I don't know what (that is)."
Off and on, this last half-century or so, I've read that the optimum for accuracy and velocity is approximately a grain or two below maximum charge weight. Nobody seems to have a clue about the why of it; it's "just one of those things".
FWIW...
Off and on, this last half-century or so, I've read that the optimum for accuracy and velocity is approximately a grain or two below maximum charge weight. Nobody seems to have a clue about the why of it; it's "just one of those things".
FWIW...
TriumphGuy
New member
Transitive Kinetic Energy = 1/2 (Mass * Velocity)²
That means that if you make a 40 grain projectile go fast enough, it will carry the same amount of energy as a 400 grain projectile. This doesn't mean that a 40gr .22 caliber bullet at 50000fps is better than a 500gr .45-70 at 1800 fps. You still have to take into account things like the diameter of the projectile. A tiny little hole is still a tiny little hole.
That means that if you make a 40 grain projectile go fast enough, it will carry the same amount of energy as a 400 grain projectile. This doesn't mean that a 40gr .22 caliber bullet at 50000fps is better than a 500gr .45-70 at 1800 fps. You still have to take into account things like the diameter of the projectile. A tiny little hole is still a tiny little hole.
Ditto...
I had not thought of making the distinction between a hunting application- where energy downrange is relevant, and our steel/paper shooting where it is not. This is a great point.
Mrawesome makes another point about the "right" powder...
Sometimes I feel like I'm at a restaurant with 50 choices on the menu and they all look good.
Before starting to work up a new load, I read as much as I can online to see what "works" for everyone else with the identical (or close) stick as what we're using.
But there are SO many manufacturers- and each manufacturer has at least several powders that would be listed as acceptable.
In trying to figure out what distinguishes one powder from another, is there anything relevant other than burn rate? IOW...would a powder from manuf. "A" produce the same results (with other factors being identical) produce the same results as one from manuf. "B" if their burn rates were identical or nearly so?
Mod, Perhaps this topic is better suited for the reloading section, so please move there if needed.
Appreciate the feedback.
Your statement (sometimes I feel like I'm at a restaurant with 50 choices on the menu and they all look good.)
Great point as I think I get locked into ordering the same thing as I know its good and what I like. Same goes with Bullet/powder/ primer combos. I get locked in on success from past rifles and expect the same thing with current one.
Hopefully its not our last meal so we can order again. So goes our testing of rifles and loads we get to go back to the bench and try again.
I get locked into mental block every once in a while.
Great point as I think I get locked into ordering the same thing as I know its good and what I like. Same goes with Bullet/powder/ primer combos. I get locked in on success from past rifles and expect the same thing with current one.
Hopefully its not our last meal so we can order again. So goes our testing of rifles and loads we get to go back to the bench and try again.
I get locked into mental block every once in a while.
IsaacCarlson
Inactive
More velocity won't necessarily dump more energy into a target. A hollow point will dump a lot more energy than a soft/hard point. A well designed hollow point will open up and stay together to deliver maximum energy. The soft point takes more time to open, IF it opens, and usually goes right on through.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I bought a 204 because I want it's capabilities, not a 20 caliber 22mag.
I bought a 7mm-08 because I wanted its capabilities, not a 7mm sized 243.
There are 3 arguments...
1) All that matters is accuracy.
2) All that matters is speed.
3) I want the capabilities of the cartridge with excellent accuracy.
Guess which one makes sense?
I find it amusing, the argument of " I found my most accurate load at mild charges..."
Yeah, with THAT powder. So what? Hodgdon lists 13 powder JUST for 40gr 223 loads.
13 powders, 1 bullet, from 3 companies. Say nothing of powders from Vihtavouri, Alliant, Ramshot, Accurate, Norma, Rex...
You all can do what you want but it makes no sense to me to find a super accurate load that shoots 250 fps slower than some other super accurate load using one of a dozen other proven powders.
I don't have 50 years of reloading and dozens of cartridges for comparison but for the rifles that I have loaded for, I have so far had no trouble finding loads from 1/2-3/4 MOA in all cases, at or near max loads. This is without playing with OAL and without searching different powders, bullets or primers.
It really makes me wonder sometimes how people manage to get such INaccurate loads. I don't think I've seen a load yet in any cartridge that shoots much over 1" at 100 yards from starting load to max.
I bought a 7mm-08 because I wanted its capabilities, not a 7mm sized 243.
There are 3 arguments...
1) All that matters is accuracy.
2) All that matters is speed.
3) I want the capabilities of the cartridge with excellent accuracy.
Guess which one makes sense?
I find it amusing, the argument of " I found my most accurate load at mild charges..."
Yeah, with THAT powder. So what? Hodgdon lists 13 powder JUST for 40gr 223 loads.
13 powders, 1 bullet, from 3 companies. Say nothing of powders from Vihtavouri, Alliant, Ramshot, Accurate, Norma, Rex...
You all can do what you want but it makes no sense to me to find a super accurate load that shoots 250 fps slower than some other super accurate load using one of a dozen other proven powders.
I don't have 50 years of reloading and dozens of cartridges for comparison but for the rifles that I have loaded for, I have so far had no trouble finding loads from 1/2-3/4 MOA in all cases, at or near max loads. This is without playing with OAL and without searching different powders, bullets or primers.
It really makes me wonder sometimes how people manage to get such INaccurate loads. I don't think I've seen a load yet in any cartridge that shoots much over 1" at 100 yards from starting load to max.
Greater velocity = less elevation
Greater Velocity = better wind bucking
greater velocity = reaching farther from specific cartridge accuratly
Now if you are a benchrest shooter at 100-500 yards or just plink around or hunt(other than for hunting reasons specified before) then it really doesnt matter. BUT if you shoot your rifle tactically, where distances are always different and you dont have sighters this is where it becomes a factor. Less elevation means flatter shooting, which means theres a little more room for error. The wind bucking factor is pretty self explanatory. The last one is also pretty self explanatory. The greater starting velocity, the longer your bullet will fly before turning subsonic.
So basically, it all really just matter if your pushing the limits of your cartridge. Most people don't but still like to maximize their reloads to be ready for anything.
Greater Velocity = better wind bucking
greater velocity = reaching farther from specific cartridge accuratly
Now if you are a benchrest shooter at 100-500 yards or just plink around or hunt(other than for hunting reasons specified before) then it really doesnt matter. BUT if you shoot your rifle tactically, where distances are always different and you dont have sighters this is where it becomes a factor. Less elevation means flatter shooting, which means theres a little more room for error. The wind bucking factor is pretty self explanatory. The last one is also pretty self explanatory. The greater starting velocity, the longer your bullet will fly before turning subsonic.
So basically, it all really just matter if your pushing the limits of your cartridge. Most people don't but still like to maximize their reloads to be ready for anything.
Lots of good points. Seems like another case of different strokes for different folks
. As to the long powder menu, I only load for rifles and a couple of pistols. I do load some different loads for each rifle for different purposes/bullets. I have several powders that have worked well for me and when I want to work up a load for a new bullet, I start by trying what I have on hand, then expand from there if I am not satisfied.
. As to the long powder menu, I only load for rifles and a couple of pistols. I do load some different loads for each rifle for different purposes/bullets. I have several powders that have worked well for me and when I want to work up a load for a new bullet, I start by trying what I have on hand, then expand from there if I am not satisfied.The question , as framed, is fair enough. Truth be told ,the most experienced reloaders I know usually look for a combination, with any cartridge, that combines the best level of spped,accuracy, and reasonable working pressures that that caliber allows for maximum perormance on target or down range. Makes no difference wether I shoot my 6PPC, .14 Walker Hornet, or 20TAC.
Also, none of this is optimized without the aid of a chronogrqaph. They're cheap, easy, and accurate, and once attained youd be rather suprised how much you read or have been told really does not hold up shooting over one. And they're plain fun to play with.
Also, none of this is optimized without the aid of a chronogrqaph. They're cheap, easy, and accurate, and once attained youd be rather suprised how much you read or have been told really does not hold up shooting over one. And they're plain fun to play with.
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I agree- gotta get a chrono.
We made the 2 hour trip for our first long range shoot last weekend. Well...mid-range anyway. We went to the steel at 565- but didn't try 1000 yet.
My estimations for MV for my sons' .308 and 6.5 Grendel were pretty close given that the ballistic program "ups" were mostly accurate within a few clicks.
OTOH, my 7.62 x 54R- which had been zeroed at 200 previously, was shooting way high (like 5") at 300 based on the info given. Obviously my MV estimate for this round was way low (that's a good thing!). But a chrono sure takes all the guesswork out of the starting point.
I guess what my whole question boils down to is this- when do "we" decide when we're chasing a ghost?
It's easy enough to know you've got work to do when you're printing 1-1/2" from a decent stick. But when you get to minute of angle, or below... it seems impossible to know whether improvements are possible, or whether you've reached the practical limit of accuracy with that rifle.
Of course, none of this very incremental "stuff" matters much inside a couple of hundred yards. But 1/4"- 1/2" at 100, x 10....= a big enough difference to mean a hit, or a miss...
We made the 2 hour trip for our first long range shoot last weekend. Well...mid-range anyway. We went to the steel at 565- but didn't try 1000 yet.
My estimations for MV for my sons' .308 and 6.5 Grendel were pretty close given that the ballistic program "ups" were mostly accurate within a few clicks.
OTOH, my 7.62 x 54R- which had been zeroed at 200 previously, was shooting way high (like 5") at 300 based on the info given. Obviously my MV estimate for this round was way low (that's a good thing!). But a chrono sure takes all the guesswork out of the starting point.
I guess what my whole question boils down to is this- when do "we" decide when we're chasing a ghost?
It's easy enough to know you've got work to do when you're printing 1-1/2" from a decent stick. But when you get to minute of angle, or below... it seems impossible to know whether improvements are possible, or whether you've reached the practical limit of accuracy with that rifle.
Of course, none of this very incremental "stuff" matters much inside a couple of hundred yards. But 1/4"- 1/2" at 100, x 10....= a big enough difference to mean a hit, or a miss...
1-Why would you assume that your experience is everyone else's?
2- Why is the fact that somebody else prefers max velocity loads for hunting "hype"?
In my .270 WIN, my best loads, accuracy wise, have been those just under or at max listed charges...... for most powder/bullet combinations. I can watch the SD shrink as the charge increases, and then begin to open up right at or just before the published Do Not Exceed charge .... group size behaves likewise. This rifle seems to prefer 150 bullets..... I have another .270 of the same make and model, and it, thus far, has not done as well with heavy bullets......
Let me turn this around:
At ranges most often encountered in hunting whitetails, a 3 MOA rifle/load is more than adequate. At 300 yards, that's still pie plate accurate, if the shooter can hold to it. So why not spend less time and money burning powder and fouling your barrel trying to shrink your group to under an inch, and instead get off the bench and apply that time and money to more..... uh, ...... "practical".... practice?
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
smith357 said:
Really? Count me out of that rule.
Let's put a little spin on this....
You're a doctor and you need a transciptionist. You post an ad and get two applicants, both of whom you test.
Applicant #1 types 25 words a minute and scores 100%, zero errors.
Applicant #2 types 75 words a minute and has a 1% error rate.
Who do you pick?
You're developing a load for your rifle.
The starting load shoots 3,000fps and 1/2moa. Half way through the work up, you get 3,200 fps and 5/8 inch. Max loads give 3,450 fps and 3/4 MOA.
Now, 1000 yard bench rest shooters, people with championships and/or money on the line is a whole 'nother animal. Regular people, people that shoot 200, 300, 400 yards. Which load do you pick? You gonna give up 450 fps for 1/4 MOA? For 1 inch at 400 yards? I'm not.