Why a shotgun?
- Thread starter DasBoot
- Start date
So, respectfully, you and your friend are blazin' fast against birds and skeet with a shotgun? I hope you never experience a home invasion, and the odds are that none of us on this thread will, but if it does happen, I hope your house is invaded by pheasants. . .
Seriously, I own a tactical shotgun and an M4. I know the advantages and limitations of each. . . . . but, respectfully, I know for a fact that at least I, and those I have trained with, can engage more targets faster, and fire more bullets into more targets faster with an M4 or AR shorty than with a pump shotgun, or even a semi-auto like a Benelli.
Demon5Romeo
New member
ddelange, your thoughts on SG vs M4/AR-15 Carbine are right on the money. Have used both in combat. I most situations, I'd rather have a M4.
U.S.SFC_RET
New member
My apologies to PPCLI 2 CAN
Several of the posts mention the longer length of the SG as being harder to handle. I have the shorter Moss 590A 12 ga. pistol grip 7+1 pump w/tactical light. On the nightstand is my XD-45ACP with X2L light/laser combo. And although I have two .223 AR-like weapons, (the PLR-16 and the SU-16C), I still believe the SG has the edge in HD. After all, first round knockdown would be the goal in the event of a home invasion, and IMO the SG has the best chance of that.
There is no such thing as "knockdown" power from SG's, carbines, or handguns. Shotgun loads DO NOT KNOCK PEOPLE DOWN. They can create serious wounds. However, even a 12ga 00 Buck load that strikes the BG in the heart will (1) not "knock" the person down; and (2) can leave the BG with enough blood pressure in his system for 10-15 seconds. If the BG/home invader falls down after the first shot, for whatever reason ("hey, I'm shot, I must now fall down"), great; but don't count on it. Be prepared for a quick follow-up shot with whatever you're using, then a quick assessment, and if the BG is still attacking. . . repeat above, maybe with a 2 +1.
Short answer: versatility
Depending upon your situation, you can choose a load that's safe, but effective. A couple have poo-poo'd using birdshot, but if you have to worry about over-penetration, it may be best. Because, as mentioned, at short range its not gonna spread out much anyway, but you're throwing alot of lead, but with less chance that it'll penetrate a wall. ANY load out of a shotgun is gonna make a MESS outa whoever's hit. In my situation I prefer 00 buck (don't have to worry much about overpenetration), specifically Sellior & Belloit 3" Magnum 15 pellet 00 buck. These don't have a shot cup, and spread very fast--About a 24" pattern at 40 feet. I have large house and a 40 foot shot would be likely. With the 15 pellet load, it'll put 10-12 onto a mansized target.
Now, I have a PG/folding stock on mine (which others will say is not ideal, but it works for me, with practice), so the overall length is only 28", with the stock folded. Plenty of maneuverability.
I also disagree with a couple other points. I can maneuver my whole house quite well in the dark(having lived here for a few years). Having a light would just make me a target. On the other hand the BG is either gonna have a flashlight, or be stumbling around (and giving away his position). Any family member would simply turn on the lights.
I also, don't buy into the "what if the BG grabs the gun" deal....Unlikely, that I'll be that close. But If someone grabs the barrel, I aughta have a firm enough grip, that I can't lose it, and the immediate response is to swing the other end into his face. At that point I'm also plenty close enough to do serious damage with my legs (studied martial arts for many years).
If I can't handle a situation w/ the 7 rounds packed into the shotgun, it'll certainly buy me time to retreat to my hi-cap rifles.
Depending upon your situation, you can choose a load that's safe, but effective. A couple have poo-poo'd using birdshot, but if you have to worry about over-penetration, it may be best. Because, as mentioned, at short range its not gonna spread out much anyway, but you're throwing alot of lead, but with less chance that it'll penetrate a wall. ANY load out of a shotgun is gonna make a MESS outa whoever's hit. In my situation I prefer 00 buck (don't have to worry much about overpenetration), specifically Sellior & Belloit 3" Magnum 15 pellet 00 buck. These don't have a shot cup, and spread very fast--About a 24" pattern at 40 feet. I have large house and a 40 foot shot would be likely. With the 15 pellet load, it'll put 10-12 onto a mansized target.
Now, I have a PG/folding stock on mine (which others will say is not ideal, but it works for me, with practice), so the overall length is only 28", with the stock folded. Plenty of maneuverability.
I also disagree with a couple other points. I can maneuver my whole house quite well in the dark(having lived here for a few years). Having a light would just make me a target. On the other hand the BG is either gonna have a flashlight, or be stumbling around (and giving away his position). Any family member would simply turn on the lights.
I also, don't buy into the "what if the BG grabs the gun" deal....Unlikely, that I'll be that close. But If someone grabs the barrel, I aughta have a firm enough grip, that I can't lose it, and the immediate response is to swing the other end into his face. At that point I'm also plenty close enough to do serious damage with my legs (studied martial arts for many years).
If I can't handle a situation w/ the 7 rounds packed into the shotgun, it'll certainly buy me time to retreat to my hi-cap rifles.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Jeepmark
That's the point-you don't WANT it to go through him, but if it does, the residual energy falls off very rapidly. If you do have a miss the shot column of birdshot is easily disrupted and loses energy.
BTW- technically, buck shot is for deer!
Bill
That's the point-you don't WANT it to go through him, but if it does, the residual energy falls off very rapidly. If you do have a miss the shot column of birdshot is easily disrupted and loses energy.
BTW- technically, buck shot is for deer!
Bill
Birdshot is not an effective HD load for a shotgun because it does not achieve adequate penetration. Average birdshot will only penetrate 4-6". Accepting the FBI standard of 12" minimum penetration to wound vital organs and arteries, birdshot will likely end up making a large, but shallow hole. It sounds graphic, but if you're facing a home invader, you've got to cause massive bleeding. At a minimum, that starts with #1 Buck (20 .30" pellets) through 000 Buck for a HD shotgun. . . . so count me in on anyone else who has "poo-poo'd" using birdshot.
home defense and shotgun
In general, I'm with guntotin fool on this one. In a big city ER I saw lots of knife and gun club wounds. Only one survivor from a shotgun wound and he had no left kidney or spleen when he left a month and a half later. Handguns were mixed; seemed the most important factor was shot placement rather than caliber; had DOAs with .22 wounds and walk-aways with 45s. At that time we didn't see any 5.56 mm shootings. Most critical factor is whether or not you hit a vital organ or large blood vessel; more likely with SG than single projectile. Advantage to the SG in extremity wounds: an arm or leg hit at within-house ranges often = traumatic amputation. Other factors: SG are inexpensive; lots of places and lots of ways to get practice (skeet, trap, sporting clays, 'turkey shoots', etc.); generally less legal restrictions on purchase or ownership. Legal issues after a shooting might make use of SG more "acceptable" to a DA or Grand Jury than use of an AR-15?
In general, I'm with guntotin fool on this one. In a big city ER I saw lots of knife and gun club wounds. Only one survivor from a shotgun wound and he had no left kidney or spleen when he left a month and a half later. Handguns were mixed; seemed the most important factor was shot placement rather than caliber; had DOAs with .22 wounds and walk-aways with 45s. At that time we didn't see any 5.56 mm shootings. Most critical factor is whether or not you hit a vital organ or large blood vessel; more likely with SG than single projectile. Advantage to the SG in extremity wounds: an arm or leg hit at within-house ranges often = traumatic amputation. Other factors: SG are inexpensive; lots of places and lots of ways to get practice (skeet, trap, sporting clays, 'turkey shoots', etc.); generally less legal restrictions on purchase or ownership. Legal issues after a shooting might make use of SG more "acceptable" to a DA or Grand Jury than use of an AR-15?
Hello guys! New here and thought I would chime in..
I think the shotgun is the best bet for HD..
This is after over 45 hours of pistol training, 30 hours of carbine and 25 hours of shotgun..
Pretty much everything has been covered and lots of good points have been made..
Your best bet is a long gun. Hands down... The power is just sooo much greater than a hadgun..
On the issue of speed and movement.. A shotgun can be brought on target jsut as fast as a rifle or handgun. With the correct ready position for the situation there is no differance. The shotgun can be held high with the stock over the sholder brought up VERY quickly and shot without the stock in the sholder pocket.. With a good push-pull recoil is not a problem.. Doing this the shooter can then step backward and rotate the gun into the pocket for a follow up shot.. You can move through a house this way with little problems of the legnth being a problem (Tho again you should NEVER try to clear a house alone!)
On the issue of over all legnth.. 2-4" longer than a rifle, 5-8" longer than a pistol held out at full ready.. I see no disadvantage here..
The only problem with a shotgun is the amount of ammo in the weapon.. not very much vs a rifle or pistol.. And you better have a secondary amm source somewhere on the gun!! When you grap it at 3AM what is on/in the gun is usually all you going to get.
The shotgun is just as fast with more than one target than a rifle or pistol..
What it comes down to is what you feel comfortable with and how you train..
With correct training you can do things you wouldn't think possable! I HIGHLY suggest people save money and take a good class! they are really fun and what is learned just may save your (or my) life!
I think the shotgun is the best bet for HD..
This is after over 45 hours of pistol training, 30 hours of carbine and 25 hours of shotgun..
Pretty much everything has been covered and lots of good points have been made..
Your best bet is a long gun. Hands down... The power is just sooo much greater than a hadgun..
On the issue of speed and movement.. A shotgun can be brought on target jsut as fast as a rifle or handgun. With the correct ready position for the situation there is no differance. The shotgun can be held high with the stock over the sholder brought up VERY quickly and shot without the stock in the sholder pocket.. With a good push-pull recoil is not a problem.. Doing this the shooter can then step backward and rotate the gun into the pocket for a follow up shot.. You can move through a house this way with little problems of the legnth being a problem (Tho again you should NEVER try to clear a house alone!)
On the issue of over all legnth.. 2-4" longer than a rifle, 5-8" longer than a pistol held out at full ready.. I see no disadvantage here..
The only problem with a shotgun is the amount of ammo in the weapon.. not very much vs a rifle or pistol.. And you better have a secondary amm source somewhere on the gun!! When you grap it at 3AM what is on/in the gun is usually all you going to get.
The shotgun is just as fast with more than one target than a rifle or pistol..
What it comes down to is what you feel comfortable with and how you train..
With correct training you can do things you wouldn't think possable! I HIGHLY suggest people save money and take a good class! they are really fun and what is learned just may save your (or my) life!
This has become an urban legend in the gun owner community. As an attorney who has defended LEO's in wrongful shooting cases, I have never come across a cited or published case, and have never heard from any prosecutor, where the "evil looks" of the gun, or the type of ammo used, were significant factors in any self defense trial.
Besides, My Mossberg 590A1 w/ Sure Fire light and side saddle of slugs looks just as "evil" as my Colt M4.
I agree with NwG that you should pick a SG or carbine you are comfortable with for your specific HD situation, and get professional training.
guntotin_fool
New member
My earlier post about being able to hit small, fast, fleeting and evasive birds meant that hitting a bad guy is a lot easier than hitting three quail with three shots all who are juking and diving and making for other places at 60 plus MPH. BG's do not fly. Nor are they as agile.
That comparison is so rediculous it's laughable. . . . .
Have you engaged multiple armed quail invading your house at the same time, possibly firing at you, and possessing the intelligence to attack you and attempt to kill you?
Do you even own a HD or tactical shotgun? Have you taken a professional training course with it? Until you do, this "I can shoot three quail" faster than you can engage three home invaders advice is not only silly, it's dangerous.
p.s. I shoot quail and skeet too. I greatly enjoy it. However, it's nothing like training for a home invasion with a SG or carbine. . . . I can't believe I actually have to say that.
Hollywood695
Inactive
I'm usually just a lurker on this site, but I have to say, it really depends on the user and the situation, there is no "perfect" HD weapon for any and every situation. Also, the homeowner should use what they are more comfortable with. If you are comfortable, confident, and proficient with an M4, then by all means, use it. Just don't turn around and criticize your neighbor for using his shotgun that he has been using since he was 10 and is probably comparably proficient with. You have the gun you're comfortable with and rely on, and they have theirs. As far as the debate goes, I sleep with a D/A pistol under my pillow and a Win. 1300 defender in my closet. I am one of the few that actually has mixed rounds loaded in it as well. My first shot is in fact a 3 inch mag birdshot followed by 5 more 2 3/4 00buck. My train of thinking is that yes, the first shot wont penetrate much, but it seems many gunfights in the home only require one or two shots, assuming hits, not misses of course (And no, I don't have any info or links to back this up, it's just something I've picked up from reading countless "it happened to me" posts on various websites). After that first shot, I'll evaluate, this is when you either drop, run away, or for our drug induced friends, keep coming. To me, that warrants the 00 buck to finish the job. And yes, no doubt i'm gonna get flamed for that one by the strict 00buck and/or slug advocates 
. I'm comfortable and confident with a shotgun so that is what I choose to use. If you are more confident with a pistol or AR then you should use that. And as a previous poster stated, we're never gonna agree and/or get to the bottom of this argument . Just my (long winded at 4A.M.) .02
Respectfully,
Hollywood
. I'm comfortable and confident with a shotgun so that is what I choose to use. If you are more confident with a pistol or AR then you should use that. And as a previous poster stated, we're never gonna agree and/or get to the bottom of this argument . Just my (long winded at 4A.M.) .02Respectfully,
Hollywood
ChileVerde1
New member
M4 Rules!
Hey Guys. 1st post!
Though both scatterguns and M4's will both do the job, my concern shifts to the dammage an errant pellet of buck may do at ranges further than fifteen yards. That may be more than encountered in a home though. At work I get to choose between the excellent wilson 870's and a colt select fire M4. I always opt for the M4. I have been in situations where myself and partners have been "rocked" biblically when trying to effect an arrest and have found that an M4 commands every bit the respect, psycologically, as an 870. Also, I feel target discrimination is easier with a rifle than with a shotgun at variable ranges and in crowded situations where perps and innocents may mix. I also prefer the 62gr softpoint Wichester Ranger LEO ammo for my service issued as well as my personal weapon. I feel this type of ammo may help with overpennetration, but fortunately I've never had to find out!
Hey Guys. 1st post!
Though both scatterguns and M4's will both do the job, my concern shifts to the dammage an errant pellet of buck may do at ranges further than fifteen yards. That may be more than encountered in a home though. At work I get to choose between the excellent wilson 870's and a colt select fire M4. I always opt for the M4. I have been in situations where myself and partners have been "rocked" biblically when trying to effect an arrest and have found that an M4 commands every bit the respect, psycologically, as an 870. Also, I feel target discrimination is easier with a rifle than with a shotgun at variable ranges and in crowded situations where perps and innocents may mix. I also prefer the 62gr softpoint Wichester Ranger LEO ammo for my service issued as well as my personal weapon. I feel this type of ammo may help with overpennetration, but fortunately I've never had to find out!
guntotin_fool
New member
DDelange
Not only do I have a HD shottie I have three in the house. two 870's, one old model model 37 Ithaca. I have been shot at. I have been shot.
Have you?
My post was strictly a comparison about speed and ability to take multiple targets under fire very quickly. Yes I do know that quail and grouse are not armed. Have I been to tactical training. yes. What did I learn there? that I was faster with a shotgun than a carbine. Pointability, practice, and preference. Just because you went to one practioner who was selling the carbine class, does not make it the word of the unspoken one. I was posting about defending MY home, against the threats that I am likely to see. I posted that the 12 gauge was superior in my mind. IN MY MIND.
I have seen wounds from carbines and I have seen the results from shotgun blasts. Believe me and believe the word of the ER doctor, People who get shot with shotguns seem to die. Very few make it to the ER. Lots of people have different opinions. Just because someone does not agree with your point of view does not mean that point of view is faulty. It just is another look. If we all saw things the same, there would be one centerfire pistol round and one centerfire rifle round.
I have a problem with your tone.
I gave an educated opinion, it did not agree with yours and you decided to attack. I posted about the differences in physical size of the two platforms. I posted about the wounds I have seen. Being unwilling to accept that I may have differing expectations and experiences from you does not make my opinions wrong.
I gave an example of why I felt that I was as quick to obtain a target with a shotgun as could be expected. I ask why you think being fast on birds has no bearing on taking any other kind of target under fire? Have you ever shot a double? two birds from the same covey on the same rise, the second dead before the first hits the ground? Hmmmm. this applies SA in knowing where the other birds have gone, watching the first hit, as you can never shoot without making sure the first is going down, and it applies target acquisition speed. Seems like that all fits in with what i was taught. observe and react., acquire first target, shoot, eval, shoot again or acquire next target, shoot, continue.
The first skill in a gun fight is gun handling.
Most people do not have the time nor inclination to run out and take many hundred dollar tactical training courses. If I was with any of my hunting partners or my kids, I would have every confidence that a shotgun in their hand would be handled well, as they have spent a lot of time in the field using them. Most of us people do not have lawyers bank accounts and find it hard to justify extra training. Mine was paid for a long time ago. They liked me, I smiled when I got to pop the bad guy.
I have no fear that I am ever going to run out of ammo in my home. I do not have that many enemies, maybe you do. For me, seven rounds of twelve gauge in the gun plus six more on the side, with another just like it in the closet or in my wife's hands seems to be enough. If we are talking about the attack of the mutant ninja zombies, then yeah maybe needing more than that is required. That is why there are belt fed weapons. I am not clearing the house, I am keeping them from getting up the stairs. That is my sole goal.
I live in suburbia. Nice places, went four months without the police needing to turn the siren on for anything other than a traffic stop. Drug head crazies mistake my house for someone else's, they are going to get a rude awakening.
No organized thief is going to hit my house for the art work and jewels, the kids drawings on the fridge are just not that valuable and the only jewels in the house are on my wife's fingers and very few would be man enough to try and take those. She is the scary one in this house. She grew up on a dairy and beef operation, culling the herd and making steers is in her blood. When it is time for something to die, it dies. I knew she was mine to marry when I was in her house for the first time. she had an 1100 behind her door (and I was to find out later, slept with a .45 under her pillow, too.)
Please do not be condescending here with regards to other posters. It belittles you.
Not only do I have a HD shottie I have three in the house. two 870's, one old model model 37 Ithaca. I have been shot at. I have been shot.
Have you?
My post was strictly a comparison about speed and ability to take multiple targets under fire very quickly. Yes I do know that quail and grouse are not armed. Have I been to tactical training. yes. What did I learn there? that I was faster with a shotgun than a carbine. Pointability, practice, and preference. Just because you went to one practioner who was selling the carbine class, does not make it the word of the unspoken one. I was posting about defending MY home, against the threats that I am likely to see. I posted that the 12 gauge was superior in my mind. IN MY MIND.
I have seen wounds from carbines and I have seen the results from shotgun blasts. Believe me and believe the word of the ER doctor, People who get shot with shotguns seem to die. Very few make it to the ER. Lots of people have different opinions. Just because someone does not agree with your point of view does not mean that point of view is faulty. It just is another look. If we all saw things the same, there would be one centerfire pistol round and one centerfire rifle round.
I have a problem with your tone.
I gave an educated opinion, it did not agree with yours and you decided to attack. I posted about the differences in physical size of the two platforms. I posted about the wounds I have seen. Being unwilling to accept that I may have differing expectations and experiences from you does not make my opinions wrong.
I gave an example of why I felt that I was as quick to obtain a target with a shotgun as could be expected. I ask why you think being fast on birds has no bearing on taking any other kind of target under fire? Have you ever shot a double? two birds from the same covey on the same rise, the second dead before the first hits the ground? Hmmmm. this applies SA in knowing where the other birds have gone, watching the first hit, as you can never shoot without making sure the first is going down, and it applies target acquisition speed. Seems like that all fits in with what i was taught. observe and react., acquire first target, shoot, eval, shoot again or acquire next target, shoot, continue.
The first skill in a gun fight is gun handling.
Most people do not have the time nor inclination to run out and take many hundred dollar tactical training courses. If I was with any of my hunting partners or my kids, I would have every confidence that a shotgun in their hand would be handled well, as they have spent a lot of time in the field using them. Most of us people do not have lawyers bank accounts and find it hard to justify extra training. Mine was paid for a long time ago. They liked me, I smiled when I got to pop the bad guy.
I have no fear that I am ever going to run out of ammo in my home. I do not have that many enemies, maybe you do. For me, seven rounds of twelve gauge in the gun plus six more on the side, with another just like it in the closet or in my wife's hands seems to be enough. If we are talking about the attack of the mutant ninja zombies, then yeah maybe needing more than that is required. That is why there are belt fed weapons. I am not clearing the house, I am keeping them from getting up the stairs. That is my sole goal.
I live in suburbia. Nice places, went four months without the police needing to turn the siren on for anything other than a traffic stop. Drug head crazies mistake my house for someone else's, they are going to get a rude awakening.
No organized thief is going to hit my house for the art work and jewels, the kids drawings on the fridge are just not that valuable and the only jewels in the house are on my wife's fingers and very few would be man enough to try and take those. She is the scary one in this house. She grew up on a dairy and beef operation, culling the herd and making steers is in her blood. When it is time for something to die, it dies. I knew she was mine to marry when I was in her house for the first time. she had an 1100 behind her door (and I was to find out later, slept with a .45 under her pillow, too.)
Please do not be condescending here with regards to other posters. It belittles you.