Why a scout rifle(carbine)?

[Jim Watson]

In retrospect, it was quite good, better than the .35 Marlin I once had or a friend's 81 Remington. But I could not make it shoot like the writer claimed and traded it off.

 

[dahermit]

I don't know of any scout rifles for sale that actually can USE a stripper clip... So that point is moot unless you've made yourself a scout out of a Moisin or Mouser action.

That is correct...I made mine out of a "mouser" action just so I could use strippers. Although I see the advantage detachable box magazines for military use, I did not want a cumbersome magazine hanging beneath the rifle.

 

[The Big D]

Arguably a near flush fit DBM is the best of both worlds. The handiness is there for hunting, and if you want the option of more rounds for tactical applications it's there.

 

[elmbow]

Which makes fo roll eye moments when you read posts slammng the GSR because the 10 rd mag protrudes too far down for good carry. Buy a 3 or 5 rd mag for the damn thing and quit whining. It's the best of both worlds, three rd flush for hunting and ten rounder for zappin zombys.

 

[oldscot3]

'09 Argentine action, mil surp stock of unknown origin, nos mil surp barrel 19" in 7x57, Burris scout 2 3/4x with german 3 post reticle on a Burris gunsmith mount. Timney trigger, a smidgen under 8lbs all in.

 

[GeauxTide]

On My M1A Scout Squad

At 9#, it's not handy; however, after two disc surgeries, my objective is to reduce recoil. The rifle is wonderful in a shooting house and I've gotten 5 shot mags so I can rest it on the the window. Scope is a 4x Weaver Scout, which I got for low light shooting.

 

[Arizona Fusilier]

I always thought the "Scout Rifle" could be pressed into service as a sniper rifle;.at moderate (300 - 500 yards?) ranges. Also, an emergency foraging tool, capable of reliably taking deer-size game.

If the Colonel were alive today, I greatly suspect he would look favorably upon the likes of 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, maybe .300 Blackout.

Accuracy, lethality, reliability, all important. But versatiity, in the hands of a man who had to expect anything, and depend upon his rifle as the primary tool to deal with it is the primary attribute of the "Scout Rifle". Or general purpose rifle, if you prefer.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...And scout rifles are generally very competitive in any discipline that involves a combination of movement, long but not absurd shots and having to find the target. ...

Exactly right.

The scout rifle should be a handy, easy and quick to manage, general purpose rifle with sufficient accuracy and power to be suitable for a wide range of situations. There are probably a number of ways to build a rifle that will meet those specification.

To understand the true value of the scout rifle concept, it would help to take a class like Gunsite 270 (General Rifle). That class included everything from snap shooting at 25 -- 75 yards to engaging obscured targets at 250 -- 300 yards, under time pressure and field conditions using improvised rests as available.

In 2006, I used a Steyr Scout for Gunsite 270 and really appreciated its utility.

 

[bamaranger]

like

I don't know about Cooper liking the various intermediate cartridges, he was pretty specific about calibers and energy levels, about the lowest level I recall endorsed was the .30-30.

He was suspicious of 'scopes, and the back up irons were a product of that doubt. I often wonder if the scopes of his early years sort of shaped his stance on the issue. Many of his generation thought the same way, and the proliferation of see through mounts and swing away mounts indicate same. He wasn't fond of battery powered optics either, but really good dots weren't on the scene yet. I suspect if Cooper had experienced a good Aimpoint, or a low magnification dot/chevron, , etc, that he may well have adjusted his opinion.

I believe the forward mounted "scoutscope" sort of gives the same general impression visually as a dot. The field of view is "out there" and you past that low magnification window on your target, center the reticle and break the shot.

I took the above to the extreme and had Leupold install a chunky German #1 in my IER scope, and it works very much like described above. The big post gets applied to target very quickly, I find it faster than a conventional reticle. Likely a mental thing for me, it's "close enough" and you break the shot. No losing time on attempting the "perfect" POI, .....deer shoulder, center of mass, center of plate, paper target, etc. Works pretty good in bad light too, better than a duplex for sure......biggest problem is seeing your target, not the post.

The big #1 works for me at my distances, and I have it in some other scopes as well. But I could see where it could cause problems with small targets, or targets at ranges beyond 300 or so, as there is no way to do holdovers. The Russians made it work in the PO series but those scopes "clicked" for elevation, who knows if they used them that way. , and the Germans used it for a long time as a hunting scope, I believe due to its visibility in bad light.

On last comment, the forward mounted scope was used on some German "marksman" rifles in WWII, and in at least one source I've read, a German sniper did not care for the rigs at all. Those scopes, and I don't have the literature at hand, may well have been the first scout scopes. And they were contoversial....even then.

 

[Unlicensed Dremel]

"I don't know of any scout rifles for sale that actually can USE a stripper clip... So that point is moot unless you've made yourself a scout out of a Mosin or Mauser action."

Kind sir, you can simply have a 'smith mill out a stripper clip "channel" on the top of the receiver on most any commercial or custom action. That's what I'm going to do if/when I build my ultimate scout (Yes it will have the forward mounted scope too - specifically the Nikon Omega / Slugmaster 1.65-5x36. In .260 Rem of course).

And others are right about the forward mounted scope, or a scope at all, being critical. Technically it doesn't even have to be a bolt action, as long as it "makes weight". But then again, as pointed out, the good Colonel only had "ideals", not musts, so it's flexible.

 

[Jim243]

In 2006, I used a Steyr Scout for Gunsite 270 and really appreciated its utility.

It is nice that some have the time and resources to take advantage of such, most of us do not. I, too am one that does not see the utility of a scout rifle. I think one would be better served just using plain irons instead of a low powered scope. Red dots, Aim-points and EOTechs being the exception.

I am not a fan of "snap shooting", for shotgun that is a different matter, but, for a high powered rifle that carries for a much longer distance I think it is a questionable practice and one is better served taking the additional time to verify the target and what lies just beyond to insure a safe shot. And I feel that a full powered scope would be a much better option at this.

I see the "Scout Rifle" as a short range weapon that benefits from open iron sights for quick acquisition and an un-obstructed view. Most notably the lever action rifle for distances between 25 to 150 yards for deer hunting.

As to improving the balance of the rifle, there are other ways to do this that do not require the addition of an under powered scope with a very long eye relief for it's use.

This is just one person's opinion and may or may not be your's.

Stay safe and take the time to make safe shots.
Jim

 

[Frank Ettin]

It is nice that some have the time and resources to take advantage of such, most of us do not. I, too am one that does not see the utility of a scout rifle....

Yes, I'm fortunate in that way. So, for example, I've had an opportunity to experience the utility and versatility of the a scout rifle in ways in which you have not.

....I am not a fan of "snap shooting",...

Perhaps having to take a snap shot with a rifle is a rare thing. However, during our class one of our instructors (Il Ling New) told us about the time she had to take a snap shot with her rifle to defend the hunting party she was guiding.

 

[agtman]

I always thought the "Scout Rifle" could be pressed into service as a sniper rifle;.at moderate (300 - 500 yards?) ranges. Also, an emergency foraging tool, capable of reliably taking deer-size game.

Cooper saw the utility of the .308/7.62 scout rifle (SR) in a way we might call "survivalist" - in the sense of self-protection (in both the military & civilian contexts), and yet for real survival and sustainment in the pursuit of takeable game, like deer.

More generally, and although the term "rifle" is used, Cooper's size and weight specs, combined with his stated requirements for optics and standard for accuracy of a SR, really call for a weapon that is, size-wise, what use to be called a "short rifle" or, better, a carbine, ... running a forward-mounted, low magnification LER scope.

Today, that would be nothing more than a handy, light-weight, and very accurate sniper rifle, but one built on a significantly scaled-down platform, with a forward-mounted optic. That necessarily excludes all the typical "sniper rifles" you see fielded today, which weight 13-14lbs or more, with big thick stocks, HUGE scopes, bull barrels, bipods, etc., all meant to be shot while proned-out, not on the move from hastily-assumed field positions. See, for example, the bolt sniper rifles used in "American Sniper."

The SR was also not intended to be a weapon capable of sending out huge amounts of firepower, nor was that its operator's mission. In other words, it was not intended to be the bolt equivalent of a modern semi-auto "assault rifle." So, the feature of a detachable mag, if you have one, would be merely a reloading convenience for the operator in the field, not for banging out high-rounds counts in run-n-gun scenarios.

If the Colonel were alive today, I greatly suspect he would look favorably upon the likes of 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, maybe .300 Blackout.

Maybe the 6.8 SPC, ... but only as a second tier candidate.
If he was anything, the Colonel was a true old-school .30-cal dude - .308 first. He mentioned the 7mm'08, but only for locales where the use or ownership of "military calibers" was verboten.

Accuracy, lethality, reliability, all important. But versatiity, in the hands of a man who had to expect anything, and depend upon his rifle as the primary tool to deal with it is the primary attribute of the "Scout Rifle". Or general purpose rifle, if you prefer.

Yes, so "versatility" and "general purpose" would rule out the .300BLK, despite it being a ".30-cal" cartridge. I love mine (a suppressed 10" SBR), but it's a limited purpose, limited utility cartridge, not a versatile SR cartridge.

 

[emcon5]

If the Colonel were alive today, I greatly suspect he would look favorably upon the likes of 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, maybe .300 Blackout.

If I remember correctly, one of his requirements was "Readily available ammo", which would tend to exclude them.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

*Crawls under fire retardent blanket and snakes wireless antennae out from under the edge.

Jeff Cooper was WRONG!
About calibers. The rest of it was pretty spot on in the sense of a general description he intended it to be. The 6.5/6.8 calibers are perfect for the scout rifle. Incredible antipersonnel rounds. No place on earth I couldn't "survival hunt" as well or better with a 6.5 than a 30. I think most of the 6.5s meet or exceed 308 penetration, so even on the big game I think they might fare better.

I love common calibers, not having hard to find calibers, etc., etc. If you read many of my posts I will almost always side with the logistics of such choices. In building a scout rifle I do not.

 

[44 AMP]

Slips starter cartridge into flamethrower...

Jeff Cooper was WRONG!
About calibers. The rest of it was pretty spot on in the sense of a general description he intended it to be. The 6.5/6.8 calibers are perfect for the scout rifle.

While I will admit not reading everything Cooper ever wrote, I don't recall him, specifically saying anything against the 6.5/6.8 (AR calibers) for the scout rifle concept. In fact, I don't think they existed at the time.

SO, if he didn't say anything about them, he could hardly have been "wrong".

I know that he didn't consider anything that needed to use a long (standard) length action. Primarily due to the difficulty (with the then existing rounds and actions) of keeping within his desired size and weight limits.

I'm a fan of the 6.5x55 Swede's performance. Match that in a short action round, and I'm onboard.

HOWEVER, one advantages of the .308 is that it performs WELL ENOUGH, and is everywhere. Sure, you can hunt with specialty rounds anywhere, and many of us do, but when you do, you are limited to the ammo you bring with you. And if something happens to that, you are done with that gun until you can get more. Getting more of a more common caliber is generally easier.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...HOWEVER, one advantages of the .308 is that it performs WELL ENOUGH, and is everywhere. Sure, you can hunt with specialty rounds anywhere, and many of us do, but when you do, you are limited to the ammo you bring with you. And if something happens to that, you are done with that gun until you can get more. Getting more of a more common caliber is generally easier....

And that is the primary reason Col. Cooper favored the .308 -- the balance of performance, availability and variety of standard loadings.

...I love common calibers, not having hard to find calibers, etc., etc. If you read many of my posts I will almost always side with the logistics of such choices. In building a scout rifle I do not.

But why not for a scout rifle. The whole point of a scout rifle is as a go [almost] everywhere and do [almost] everything rifle. And for that purpose logistics counts.

 

[agtman]

While I will admit not reading everything Cooper ever wrote, I don't recall him, specifically saying anything against the 6.5/6.8 (AR calibers) for the scout rifle concept. In fact, I don't think they existed at the time.

That's correct. At the time Cooper was writing about the SR concept, including its size, weight, and caliber specs, none of those 6-something AR cartridges existed.

Speaking of the caliber issue, one exception someone mentioned was some amount of comment or discussion by Cooper on a SR for Africa, chambered for a cartridge capable of taking African Plains game - I think. Don't have it in front of me, but I think he discussed the idea of a scaled-up SR, built on a BRNO Mauser action, for use on African plains game, and maybe on Buff as well, but not primarily for dangerous game.

The 350 Rem magnum comes to mind, but it may have been another "short" magnum chambering (?)

Any of you Cooper/SR fans recall it?

 

[Art Eatman]

I've always enjoyed Cooper's writing, as have others:

http://www.dvc.org.uk/jeff/

 

[44 AMP]

I no longer recall all the details clearly (and I'm going only from my admittedly fallible memory, so please bear with me, and correct me if I get something wrong..)

Cooper called his African scout "Baby", and the .350 Rem Mag round "Fireplug" or something like that. I believe it was a Rem 600 rifle to begin with. I believe he later had another one made up on a BRNO (or some other) action.

Yes, the intent was a scout class rifle for the bigger African game, short of Buffalo, Elephant, etc.

When he shopped the concept to gunmakers, the only one who came out with something was Steyr. And, while having a number of the features he wanted, their Steyr Scout still wasn't everything Cooper dreamed of.

I think he did approve of the performance of the .376 Steyr round, though.