Why a scout rifle(carbine)?

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I love the forward mounted optics on rifles. I had a Marlin 336 setup that way and a Ruger gunsite scout. I kick myself for getting rid of them. I will buy another Gunsite scout in the future.

Target acquisition is much fast for me, plus I like the detachable magazines of the gunsite.
 
I discovered Col. Cooper when I got into IPSC in 1980. A small bit of correspondence with him; a lot of reading of his work.

I have no great differences about his notions for the Scout rifle. Personally, I'd spent too many decades with a conventionally-mounted scope to want to learn a new trick. :)

I note that an early effort of his involved the Remington 600.

Where I see a problem for many in discussing the concept is that the meaning of "scout" is not well understood by many younger people. Whether hunting an enemy or a deer, a firefight sort of engagement means that the scout has failed in his mission: That of seeing while being unseen.
 
If there is a serious flaw in Cooper's Scout rifle concept, it is probably his choice to use the name Scout Rifle. Cooper knew what he was about, but didn't often make allowances for people who didn't.

The "Scout Rifle" would be about perfect for as military scout, in the late 19th or early 20th century. Unfortunately, many people can only see the "scout" the way the military uses them TODAY, which is a much different role.

yes, Cooper did use the Remington 600 action for some of his scout rifles. The emphasis was on the size and weight, and keeping them as close to Cooper's ideals with existing actions.

The 600 was not "ideal" but it was the closest he could get, on the available market at the time.

I'd have to go look them up, and don't feel like it, so going from memory, I recall the Scout rifle was supposed to be one meter long and 3kg or less.

Or as close to that as could be achieved.
 
stripper clips

Remember, the forward mounted optic had four purposes, making use of a stripper clip slot was one, the other three being balance, fast target acquisition while maintaining situational awareness and the ability to have a receiver sight mounted on the rear of the action. To poopah the scout concept because your rifle doesn't have a stripper clip slot is silly, and besides, $150 will get a gunsmith to mill a slot into your rifle's receiver if you feel the need. The GSR negates the need for the stripper clip slot. I always thought Finn Aagard's Mexican Mauser scout was nicely executed.
And where is the rule that states one needs be a Cooper "worshiper" to appreciate his ideas on a practical rifle? Sheesh!
 
Some rifles weren't stocked as well for scopes as the maker was expecting the shooter to use the sights that came with the rifle. This is mostly a thing of the past as now most bolt-action rifles come without sights, scopes are expected, and the rifle is stocked accordingly.
This is an annoying problem these days, for those of us anyway, who prefer a "working" type/stocked rifle, more so than a static type hunting rifle, as many, if not most seem to be today. The majority of the rifle stocks these days, have a LOP that is to long, a comb that is to high,and a silly recoil pad, that adds to LOP and is usually sticky to boot, causing it to interfere with "'natural" shouldering of the rifle.

There are some things I like about the scout rifle concept. The forward mounted scope is not one of those things. Better not to have a scope at all. I'm fairly impressed with how well a good aperture sight performs. I'm using reading glasses right now and will be 60 next month. The open rear sight on my 94 is a little tricky now, but throw on a peep sight and everything becomes much better in a hurry.
The only real issues Ive had with forward mounted scopes have been, light coming in low over your shoulder, and hitting the glass (which is also a problem for many, if not most peep type sights as well), and not having the light gathering properties of the more traditionally mounted scopes. The second issue, really isnt as much of a big deal as the first.

Open sights usually fall into two groups, peep and the leaf type. The peeps generally make for a better "target" type sight, where the leaf are a better reactive type sight, and especially at closer ranges. A large ghost ring helps with the peeps, but I still find the leaf type to be more effective for everything but target shooting. My favorite all around "combat" irons are those made by HK, and used on their G3/90 series rifles (as well as the Spanish FR-8's). They are basically the best of both worlds, having both type sights (a big notch setting for close range, and peeps to realistic distances) in the same sight.



Ive had a couple of rifles set up a scouts. Personally, I prefer the military rifles with a stripper guide, and thats for all my bolt guns, not just the scouts.

Ive always found it interesting how many people these days, have no idea what the stripper is for, or how it works. Differences in eras I suppose. Learning how to properly work the bolt (another wonderment it seems for many these days), and how to load the rifle, was the first thing were were taught.

I find the low and forward mounted scout type scopes work better with stocks made for irons sights. Rifles set up like this, shoulder and shoot more naturally, as if the scope wasnt there at all. The forward mounted scope makes reactive shooting much easier, and like a red dot, puts the focus on the target, not the sight. You look at the target, shoulder the rifle, and the cross hairs appear where youre looking on the target. With the scope mounted more forward, you have much better peripheral vision, and you dont tend to get "lost in the scope", which tends to happen more so in a traditionally mounted scope. "Snap" or reactive type shooting is very fast and natural with this set up, or at least for me it is. Snap shots at 100 yards and beyond are amazingly easy.

I also prefer my red dots mounted forward too, and for most of the reasons above.

As I said above though, the scout scpes are not perfect, and some lighting conditions can cause you grief.

I have yet to find the balance on any of my rifles with forward mounted sights to be affected, and if anything, there is less handling/manipulation interference with them up front.

I know they dont seem to be for everyone, but I think that those who have spent some time with one, and learned to shoot them in a manner they were meant to be shot, understand them and appreciate them for what they are.

Considering how long the concept has been around, from the comments Ive had from people at some of the ranges I was shooting mine, I think that many dont have a clue as to what the concept is, and have never seen, let alone shot one. Most gave them a skeptical look, and didnt seem to impressed.
 
I like modern stock designs on rifles that will always be scoped. They are wonderful for good cheek weld, repeat head/eye position, and for recoil management. The boltguns of the 50s, 60s, and 70s with their dropped combs were never a good compromise for riflescopes. Beat your cheekbone to death and made good cheek weld nearly impossible. It is pretty hard to have a stock design that excels for both iron sights and scopes. I believe this is where the old saw about mounting scopes as low as possible originated.
I have a Remington 700 that I have "built" into a classic receiver sighted sporter and part of the process involved reducing the height of the stock comb.
 
AK103K said:
This is an annoying problem these days, for those of us anyway, who prefer a "working" type/stocked rifle, more so than a static type hunting rifle, as many, if not most seem to be today. The majority of the rifle stocks these days, have a LOP that is to long, a comb that is to high,and a silly recoil pad, that adds to LOP and is usually sticky to boot, causing it to interfere with "'natural" shouldering of the rifle.

Oh good, I thought I was the only one who hated the way modern "American classic" sporter stocks are laid out. I had a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle and a TC Encore at various times, and the one thing I truly remember disliking about both of them was how awkward the stocks felt any time I wasn't in a securely rested shooting position. They were great at the bench or rested, but not as much so for "standing up and shooting." This is giving me thoughts I might go post elsewhere.

As for the Scout concept, I've been looking very hard at putting a forward-mounted scope on my little Marlin 336 carbine. In it's current peep-sighted configuration it makes a great walking around rifle and is well set-up for quick shooting at closer ranges. But I recently mounted a red dot onto an AR carbine and am impressed at how much easier it is to use when my eyes don't have to juggle focusing on multiple things. Which makes me curious to try if the 336 would be easier to use with a compact lower-power scope mounted similarly to the red dot on the AR.

With respect to the rest of the Scout-rifle criteria, after reading a lot the last couple of days it occurs to me Colonel Cooper was really trying to say "A compact, fast handling, hard hitting rifle that is easy to carry and doesn't get hung up in every bramble and briar in the county with sights set-up to allow the shooter to easily make hits in a hurry." Every old time East Coast deer hunter is likely to agree that those traits make a "good rifle", while grabbing their trusty old Winchester 94s, Marlin 336s and Remington pump or semi-auto carbines come November.
 
No, youre not the only one. :)

I tried the scout set up on one of my Winchester Trappers, and hated it. I tried both scope and red dot, and while both worked, and worked well, I hated what it did putting all that stuff on such a handy little rifle. Took all the handiness out of it for me. I ended up putting an XS ghost ring on it, and the couple of other Trappers I have/had. Works well (not as good as the red dot though), and you dont lose the looks or handiness.

As a side note, that saddle ring on the Trappers is the original "single point" sling set up. Not that its related here (well it is sort of, just not a "Ching sling), but it really does work well.

I also have a marlin 336 "youth", which I just left as is. Some guns just need that. :)
 
Ah, well, you may have just talked me out of trying it. I don't mind hanging a red dot on the front of the AR-15 receiver, the thing already has enough protuberances between the pistol grip, mag well, front sight, folding rear sight, etc, one more stick-out isn't really going to hurt. :D But the lever gun is a neat, slick little rifle.

Looks like I have to search out an old Remington Model 7 or 600 if I want a lightweight, scoped, easy-handling sporter that won't get caught on all the foliage between here and the White Mountains. Unless they're also stocked as fixed-position artillery pieces... :mad:
 
I have a savage 99 with a 4x weaver; a friend has an older Marlin 444 with a 4x, both outperform any iron sighted 94 I've ever shot (thats more than one) by a wide margin.

However, perhaps that argument should go in another thread, the OP said "bolt gun".
 
Looks like I have to search out an old Remington Model 7 or 600 if I want a lightweight, scoped, easy-handling sporter

There was a "sub-scout" that made the rounds here a few years ago.
A Model 7 .308 with Leupold Scout Scope 2.75X. None of the other Cooperisms but it was a very handy sporter, no heavier than a lever action but more accurate and powerful.
I once tinkered with a Model 600 .35 with receiver sight that was also an easy rifle to carry and shoot. I traded it because I couldn't get it to shoot MOA like the gunzine expert said his would.
 
Well for me I get to scope my k98 Mauser's & keep them just the way they where in ww2. I don't have to drill & tap them & can always just take the scope off but the rear site back on & it's just the way it was the day it was made.
 
When I started shooting rifles I loved peep sights. I had 20/10 vision and shooting it was a snap. A little more than ten years later my vision has slipped to 20/30 and it is a noticeable difference. With glasses I have problems focusing on the front sight. Without them I have trouble seeing most competition target bullseyes at 100 yards. Many have worse, but it isn't like when I had 20/10.
I have seriously considered trying a forward scope as I seem to have 0 problems with the one rear scoped rifle in my collection.
 
What is to be gained in a bolt carbine with a forward mounted scope?

Faster target acquisition. There is less for the eye and brain to do ....Those who do not find it faster either are not giving it an honest effort, or have their old methods so ingrained ("muscle memory") that it takes conscious effort to do otherwise ..... That muscle memory takes as much time to unlearn as it did to learn.

Greater peripheral vision.......FAR greater than with one of the high mounted, high magnification scopes so popular these days mounted over the reciever.

Less eye strain -looking at an objective lens 3 or 4 inches away with one eye closed for extended periods of time will strain your eyes much more than looking at one 16" inches away with both eyes open ..... and trying to look through a high magnification scope with both eyes open for very long will give one a headache as your brain and eyes try to make sense of two images of radically different size and brightness.


Total elimination of the possiblity of "scope eye" injury- of great importance when you consider the scout type rifle ideally has a short LOP, is very light weight for a rifle, is stocked such that irons can be used, AND uses a pretty powerful cartridge ...... AND is to be used for quick shots in all sorts of conditions under time pressure ....... ALL of those things would tend to contribute to getting whacked with the scope. Add them all together, and put a big, conventionally mounted scope on it, and you are just asking for a scar in or under your right eyebrow, or on the right side of your nose....
 
I don't get it. You destroy the balance just to have inferior sighting? What am I missing?

You probably won't ever "get it". The way you asked the question suggests you already have come to your conclusion before you asked.

The "balance" of a rifle would be less affected by putting one of the very small scopes suggested by Cooper ( a Burris 2x20 is 7 oz. and Leupold's 2.5x28mm is 7 1/2) centered 6 inches in front of the reciever ring than putting much larger scopes 1/2 the distance behind it. Some guns (daughter's Marlin 30A IME) actually handle better with more weight forward. I find the pencil barreled Winchester 94 to be too light on the front end ..... others are designed to balance with the forward mounted scope (my Ruger Frontier).


As for "inferior sighting" ..... I've already addressed that .....
 
Jim Watson, a bummer that your 600 wasn't accurate for you. I have owned two, a 222 Mohawk and my current 600 .308 configured as scout, and both were/are uncanny in their performance. By all rights that cheap, skinny Remington tube should throw cold bore shots off, same when it heats up, but mine both shot moa, no matter what. I have read that the 600, being based on the XP pistol had something to do with its inherent accuracy. Don't know nuttin 'bout dat, I just know I'm not changing barrels on mine anytime soon.:)
And I just don't get the balance thing. My 600 scout and to a slightly lesser degree, the GSR, both carry more like classic leverguns than any bolt gun I've ever owned. Note, I didn't say they shot like leverguns, but they are sweet to carry in the hand.
 
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