Why a scout rifle(carbine)?
- Thread starter kcub
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Hmm, I'm not noticing the balance being "destroyed" on my scout rifle. Maybe I missed some sort of memo 
The reason for a forward telescope is that a sighting system has to achieve two purposes - target acquisition AND aiming. The conventionally mounted telescope aids aiming quite well, but at the cost of acquisition - you'd have a much easier time finding what you're trying to shoot with iron sights. The forward telescope balances those two things. It's not quite as good for aiming as a conventional telescope, but it's basically as good for acquisition as iron sights.
The reason for a forward telescope is that a sighting system has to achieve two purposes - target acquisition AND aiming. The conventionally mounted telescope aids aiming quite well, but at the cost of acquisition - you'd have a much easier time finding what you're trying to shoot with iron sights. The forward telescope balances those two things. It's not quite as good for aiming as a conventional telescope, but it's basically as good for acquisition as iron sights.
I have a burris and a hi-lux scopes, one is 2.75x and the other is fixed at 1-3x (IIRC). One on a semi-auto and the other on a bolt action
They are easier for me to see, thats the only answer I can give. I shot hundreds if not thousands of rounds through the traditional set up and had good days and many more bad days shooting off a rest. Open sites were always good or great days. I was with a buddy shooting 300yard gongs, he was shooting open sights and couldnt hit while I was shooting my scope and couldnt hit. Then we switched rifles and both of us were dead on and couldnt miss without making any adjustments.
When I first read about forward mounted scopes I decided to try the set up and it was great. When I can afford it, I'll start experimenting with forward mounted red dots. I have a couple of SEEALL sights and love them.
I also shoot longbows, recurves and primitive bows all without sights. I guess I was born an instinctive shooter with all types of devices, even slingshots
They are easier for me to see, thats the only answer I can give. I shot hundreds if not thousands of rounds through the traditional set up and had good days and many more bad days shooting off a rest. Open sites were always good or great days. I was with a buddy shooting 300yard gongs, he was shooting open sights and couldnt hit while I was shooting my scope and couldnt hit. Then we switched rifles and both of us were dead on and couldnt miss without making any adjustments.
When I first read about forward mounted scopes I decided to try the set up and it was great. When I can afford it, I'll start experimenting with forward mounted red dots. I have a couple of SEEALL sights and love them.
I also shoot longbows, recurves and primitive bows all without sights. I guess I was born an instinctive shooter with all types of devices, even slingshots
My "scout" isn't as pure an example as Col. Cooper would have wanted, but it has as many of the desirable attributes as I need. The optic, being low power, possessing a heavy cross hair and forward mounted allows me to shoot it with both eyes open. With some practice you can throw the gun up and aquire the target quickly. At the ranch, it's ideal for a suprised feral pig that will beat a hasty exit when it sees you.
Another advantage for my rifle, is that the scout scope allowed me to retain the straight bolt that my Argentine 09 action came equipped with. Finally, the scout scope leaves my action unobstructed, which means I can carry extra ammo on stripper clips and, if needed, actually feed the magazine from them.
My little scout mauser replaced my 30 30 when my aging eyes began to dislike open sights.
Another advantage for my rifle, is that the scout scope allowed me to retain the straight bolt that my Argentine 09 action came equipped with. Finally, the scout scope leaves my action unobstructed, which means I can carry extra ammo on stripper clips and, if needed, actually feed the magazine from them.
My little scout mauser replaced my 30 30 when my aging eyes began to dislike open sights.
g.willikers
New member
Changing equipment designs or styles often requires a change in technique to match.
Continuing to try using the technique of the typical scope mounted rifle with the scout type setup isn't likely to be satisfactory.
Maybe that's where the OP's misunderstanding of the scout rifle originates.
Continuing to try using the technique of the typical scope mounted rifle with the scout type setup isn't likely to be satisfactory.
Maybe that's where the OP's misunderstanding of the scout rifle originates.
Pathfinder45
New member
Not being able to quickly find your target in a scoped rifle is primarily the result of too much magnification and secondarily improper mounting position of the scope to fit the rifle and shooter. Some rifles weren't stocked as well for scopes as the maker was expecting the shooter to use the sights that came with the rifle. This is mostly a thing of the past as now most bolt-action rifles come without sights, scopes are expected, and the rifle is stocked accordingly. There are some things I like about the scout rifle concept. The forward mounted scope is not one of those things. Better not to have a scope at all. I'm fairly impressed with how well a good aperture sight performs. I'm using reading glasses right now and will be 60 next month. The open rear sight on my 94 is a little tricky now, but throw on a peep sight and everything becomes much better in a hurry. Whatever happened to quick-detach scope mounts? Were they ever any good?
People have become fixated on the forward mounted scope as what defines a "scout rifle", but if you actually read Cooper's writings as he developed the concept, the scope wasn't part of it.
Essentially he was ambivalent about using a scope, but firm in his belief that if you did mount a scope, it should be forward mounted (and of course, of a type that would work in that location.
This allowed for the Ghost Ring type sight he was in favor of. Also gives the ability to use stripper clips (assuming you used an action that could).
As far as I can see, no one has made a mass market version of Cooper's "Scout" that embodies ALL the features he wrote about, in the way that he used them.
Essentially he was ambivalent about using a scope, but firm in his belief that if you did mount a scope, it should be forward mounted (and of course, of a type that would work in that location.
This allowed for the Ghost Ring type sight he was in favor of. Also gives the ability to use stripper clips (assuming you used an action that could).
As far as I can see, no one has made a mass market version of Cooper's "Scout" that embodies ALL the features he wrote about, in the way that he used them.
I'm not positive, but I have a vague recollection that he endorsed the Steyr version when it came out.
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dahermit , you are not bound by ancient Mosaic law as the Israelites were at the time of the exodus. Nevertheless, the Bible is truth.
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dahermit , you are not bound by ancient Mosaic law as the Israelites were at the time of the exodus. Nevertheless, the Bible is truth.
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Read the original G&A article long ago. Definitely was a scope with back up irons. The whole idea was one of Cooper's more stupid ideas. He was envisioning the thing for military types, not hunting, at a time when nobody issued bolt action rifles to anybody in a uniform but highly trained snipers.
"...he endorsed the Steyr version..." He had gone to Steyr-Mannlicher to make 'em because nobody Stateside was interested.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/10/2/throwback-thursday-the-scout-rifle/
"...he endorsed the Steyr version..." He had gone to Steyr-Mannlicher to make 'em because nobody Stateside was interested.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/10/2/throwback-thursday-the-scout-rifle/
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Competition at Gunsite in "shoot'n'scoot" matches showed that the forward mounting of the scope allowed faster target acquisition. Scout rifles so-equipped regularly won the matches.
But the military tested the concept and proved that low powered optics mounted conventionally worked better. Big difference in playing games at the range where the rules are designed to benefit one design over another vs real world shooting.
The concept is vague at best. Cooper listed ideas that he considered as "Ideal", but as someone else pointed out no one to my knowledge has ever produced one that met all of the criteria. Cooper himself used and recommended several that were not perfect. Pick the features important to you and don't worry about getting everything perfect
Personally I like the concept of a lightweight, compact bolt gun. I've tried forward mounted scopes and don't like em, Cooper wasn't right about a lot of stuff. I'll keep mine where it belongs
The concept is vague at best. Cooper listed ideas that he considered as "Ideal", but as someone else pointed out no one to my knowledge has ever produced one that met all of the criteria. Cooper himself used and recommended several that were not perfect. Pick the features important to you and don't worry about getting everything perfect
Personally I like the concept of a lightweight, compact bolt gun. I've tried forward mounted scopes and don't like em, Cooper wasn't right about a lot of stuff. I'll keep mine where it belongs
Contrary to what people are posting, the new version of the Ruger Gunsite scout with the obvious accessories (polymer mag, leupold 2.5x scout scope, Warne detachable rings, Riflecraft safari Ching sling) meets all scout requirements. As far as I can tell, it is the first bolt-together commercial rifle configuration to do so.
And scout rifles are generally very competitive in any discipline that involves a combination of movement, long but not absurd shots and having to find the target. You know, those things that occur in actual hunting (or combat)
The military will never go to a forward telescope despite the advantages because the have an inventory of M4s and M16s with no way to mount one. Beans will be counted...
Oh, and I checked the balance point on my RGS and it's at the front edge of the magazine, which is the same point my M70 with conventionally mounted telescope balances. The forward scope is compensated for by the shorter barrel, so there's no balance shift. There's nothing balance-ruining about the scout concept.
And scout rifles are generally very competitive in any discipline that involves a combination of movement, long but not absurd shots and having to find the target. You know, those things that occur in actual hunting (or combat)
The military will never go to a forward telescope despite the advantages because the have an inventory of M4s and M16s with no way to mount one. Beans will be counted...
Oh, and I checked the balance point on my RGS and it's at the front edge of the magazine, which is the same point my M70 with conventionally mounted telescope balances. The forward scope is compensated for by the shorter barrel, so there's no balance shift. There's nothing balance-ruining about the scout concept.
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Scout rifles
I am always amused at the vitriol some peeps have towards the scout concept, as though it were inherently evil and come to steal our children in the night.
I am convinced that the majority of critics of the forward mount optic have never actually used one sufficiently enough to become adept with the system.
I grew up hunting with receiver sights and when I transitioned to glass I took with me the knowledge that one always keeps both eyes open when shooting, be it through glass or irons of any style. So when I read Cooper's ideas on the general purpose rifle in his book "To Ride, Shoot Straight and Tell the Truth" it struck an immediate chord with me. It took me some years but eventually I picked up a Rem 600 in .308 and spent several years slowly turning it into a Scout rifle. Bansner stock, barrel turned down to accept XS rail tube, receiver sight, (did you know the Rem 600 is D&T'd for receiver sight?) trigger work, new front sight installed, swivel stud for Ching, etc. As close to Cooper's idea as one could reasonably expect without spending a small fortune. This rifle, with leather Ching, and Burris 2.75 weighs right at 6 lbs, balances perfectly in the hand, and is remarkably fast at target acquisition. Without a doubt it is faster than any conventionally mounted scope I own, and I am a fan of quality low power variables that give huge bright exit pupils. I think that my ghost ring rifles are a skosh faster than the Scout, but not much.
I also picked up a RGS this last January when they (finally) came out with it in a syn stock at a lb lighter than that laminated club and I absolutely love this rifle. It does give the nod to the tactical crowd with its threaded muzzle and DBM, (and btw, I disagree that Cooper's intent with the Scout was to design a tactical rifle, which is clear if one understands what he meant by a "general purpose rifle"). The only thing I can really fault on the GSR is it is still too heavy. Ruger could shave a pound of steel off the action and barrel and have a near perfect GP rifle on their hands. A long post, I apologize, but I cannot state emphatically enough, that out of my twenty odd something rifles, if I had to pick just one to fill every role imaginable with a rifle, it would be a Scout rifle.
I am always amused at the vitriol some peeps have towards the scout concept, as though it were inherently evil and come to steal our children in the night.
I am convinced that the majority of critics of the forward mount optic have never actually used one sufficiently enough to become adept with the system.
I grew up hunting with receiver sights and when I transitioned to glass I took with me the knowledge that one always keeps both eyes open when shooting, be it through glass or irons of any style. So when I read Cooper's ideas on the general purpose rifle in his book "To Ride, Shoot Straight and Tell the Truth" it struck an immediate chord with me. It took me some years but eventually I picked up a Rem 600 in .308 and spent several years slowly turning it into a Scout rifle. Bansner stock, barrel turned down to accept XS rail tube, receiver sight, (did you know the Rem 600 is D&T'd for receiver sight?) trigger work, new front sight installed, swivel stud for Ching, etc. As close to Cooper's idea as one could reasonably expect without spending a small fortune. This rifle, with leather Ching, and Burris 2.75 weighs right at 6 lbs, balances perfectly in the hand, and is remarkably fast at target acquisition. Without a doubt it is faster than any conventionally mounted scope I own, and I am a fan of quality low power variables that give huge bright exit pupils. I think that my ghost ring rifles are a skosh faster than the Scout, but not much.
I also picked up a RGS this last January when they (finally) came out with it in a syn stock at a lb lighter than that laminated club and I absolutely love this rifle. It does give the nod to the tactical crowd with its threaded muzzle and DBM, (and btw, I disagree that Cooper's intent with the Scout was to design a tactical rifle, which is clear if one understands what he meant by a "general purpose rifle"). The only thing I can really fault on the GSR is it is still too heavy. Ruger could shave a pound of steel off the action and barrel and have a near perfect GP rifle on their hands. A long post, I apologize, but I cannot state emphatically enough, that out of my twenty odd something rifles, if I had to pick just one to fill every role imaginable with a rifle, it would be a Scout rifle.
Model12Win
Moderator
I don't know of any scout rifles for sale that actually can USE a stripper clip... So that point is moot unless you've made yourself a scout out of a Moisin or Mouser action.
Jim Watson
New member
It almost sounds like one of those gun board surveys "If you could only have one..." that sounds to me like a gun controller's dream.
When I go woods walking I really can only have one. I have two hands so I suppose I could carry two, but I use both hands to operate one rifle, so I'd have to set one down to shoot.
My Mauser scout is a good choice, as stated above, for general purpose. Not too heavy to carry around, good handling, powerful enough for pigs and deer, etc., etc.
My Mauser scout is a good choice, as stated above, for general purpose. Not too heavy to carry around, good handling, powerful enough for pigs and deer, etc., etc.
There are optics such as the Trijicon Acog that give rapid target acquisition, low magnification, and some even have back up iron sights on top (BUIS). Further, you can put it on a quality semi like a SCAR and make the cut all the way to post WW1 technology.
To each his own but I'll never have a forward mounted scope. A light, short handy rifle? Sure, but I don't think worshipers of Col Cooper have that to thank him for.
But I totally do love peep sights. Every iron sight should be a peep sight.
To each his own but I'll never have a forward mounted scope. A light, short handy rifle? Sure, but I don't think worshipers of Col Cooper have that to thank him for.
But I totally do love peep sights. Every iron sight should be a peep sight.
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