Why????????????? (30-378 for deer hunting)

Yep, the 45-70 will kill it if you can hit it.

Here are some numbers for your 45-70, 300gr bullet at 1330 muzzle velocity.

Sighted in at 100yds

2.2 inches high at 50yds
0.0 at 100yds
9" Low at 150yds
26" Low at 200yds
51.5" Low at 250yds
86" Low at 300yds
131" Low at 350yds
187" Low at 400yds Only 418 FtLbs energy

45-70 and 400yds is well over a second in travel time! (.4sec for 7mmRemMag)

86" is more than 7 feet at just 300yds!
187" is more than 15 feet at 400yds!

Maybe thats why they shot at Buffalo HERDS! and then just picked up what was dead!


I killed a whitetail with a 6000lb Dodge pickup going only 88ft/sec (but the range was zero!)

AJ
 
Well, I recently bought the last .338 Lapua Magnum for a project from an allotment in Louisiana. It was the last one in a large allotment, because the others had been snapped up by local whitetail owners!

My, my. 250 gr bullets at 3100 fps, on a 150 lb whitetail, in a state that can't have a whole lot of long shots. I asked why these guys were using it, and the dealer said, "cuz they're young, stupid, and they hate to track wounded animals."

I guess that works.
 
1000 Yard Matches

Their are guys that shoot one thousand yard matches with blackpowder, .45-70 loads. I guess they just aim at all the paper targets and hope they hit the right one.

The Buffalo Hunters did one thing, shoot alot. They had to, that was their income. I have shot reproduction .45-70's with blackpowder cartridges. While the recoil was stout, it was in no way comparable to any of those ultra mags in a typical hunting wieght rifle. I could shoot one of those BPC rifles often as far as recoil comfort goes. I don't think I could shoot all day with an ultra super duper mag. all day without developing a flinch.

Also, the hunters back then were not hung up on numbers and ballistics. They used what worked, period. Gun magazines and gun writers did not have as much influence as they do now.
 
Their are guys that shoot one thousand yard matches with blackpowder, .45-70 loads.
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Yep, and their are guys that think just because it says Magnum on the side, its too big ;)


I guess they just aim at all the paper targets and hope they hit the right one.
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Nope, they have it sighted in for 1000yds, about 200 MOA over 100yds, a big heavy consistent bullet will hit pretty much the same each time. BUT, tell them its 1000yds and have the targets at 950yds and they will overshoot the target by 25 FEET! So, how did they tell how far the Bison were? Laser Range Finders? No, they normally shot them at close range (200yds or so).

I like the 45-70, 45-90, 45-110, 50-110 .... They are fine antique rounds that are 'consistent', but they certainly wouldn't be appropriate for random distance hunting over about 150yds.

AJ
 
It Can Be Too Big

Some folks can handle the recoil of any round. But the fact is, many can not. Many shooters that have flinches do not even realize it.

I have seen more than one rookie go through several boxes of factory ammo in one of their new, super mag rifles, and not even be close to having it sighted in. They do have a flinch.

I also see some guys at the range week in and week out. Most of them are shooting standard, nonmagnum cartridges. The magnum maniacs are never seen until a week before that start of next years hunting season. My theory is, that the recoil experience was enough for one year. They figure just the velocity of thier round will blow a deer over even if it doesn't connect with hide.
 
Yep, its unfortunate that nobody helps them out and gets them to shoot some lighter bullets in their Magnums. A light projectile from a 300Win Mag can have less recoil than a heavy/hot 308.

I shoot 20k+- rounds/year and less than a dozen from my Magnums.

Why would I intentionally burn the barrel out on a hunting rifle when I have so many other 'range guns'?

I also believe that "trigger time" is "trigger time".

Later,
AJ
 
I agree with the light bullets out of the mags. I shoot 140gr Combined Technology Ballistic Tips out of my 7STW at close to 3500fps. The recoil is less than most 30-06 loadings.

I later put a brake on it and it now kicks like a .243. The brake wasn't to help any problem with recoil on my part, but with a scope with a 60mm objective you will tear up mounts due to the weight. It ate Leopold STD rings like candy.

I really do like to shoot heavy recoiling guns and mastering a long range heavy hitter is part of the hunting challenge. I sighted in a .375 Ultra mag for a friend going on an African trip and the gun would torque counter clockwise with every shot. I also ran 5 shots out of a .460 Weatherby in a T-shirt and it was a blast. I was shooting bowling pins offhand at 40 yards with the express sights so I guess I wasn't flinching that bad. I'm 5'9" and 165lbs so I find recoil just a matter of focus for most healthy people.
 
i realy hope that guy who is buying the 375RUM has shot alot becuase i shoot big guns alot up to a 505 gibbs and I hate everything about the 375rum
it just hurts it made my eyes bloodshot after 2 rounds
 
Guide Experience

Once a year, we have a sportsman's exposition here. Basically, it is a show with booths manned by a bunch of outfitters and hunting guides. The majority of them are from the western states. Most of them feature elk hunts.

I go every year. I enjoy talking to these outfitters. I often pick their brains about which cartridges they feel are adequte for elk. Ninety percent of the time, the first answer is the .30-06. I've asked them about the magnums. More then one of them has rolled his eyes at that. They become very nervous when Joe Blow hunter shows up at the elk camp with some new fangled super mag. They relax when some hunter shows up with an '06, or similar caliber.
 
Ill take a 45-70 marlin guide gun ,in the brush with iron sites before id use a 12 gauge with slugs.
 
I had a similar experience recently. There was a gentleman at the range, shooting a .300 Weatherby (perhaps a .30-378, I don't know)...with a definite flinch. The best he could manage was a few shots, inside a 3" circle, at 75 yards....with a several more well outside the circle....for a total of about ten shots...and a 7" group (approximately).

I had paid little attention, other than to ask him what he was shooting. He said something about being "all set" for his Mule Deer hunt....in Wyoming or Montana (I don't remember which).

When I arrived to pull down my targets...and put up my target stand (which is SOP at the range).... I decided to put up his stand (he had left it in place, ignoring the rules). That is when I first saw his target. I couldn't help but remark to the RSO that, if that was the best he could do with that cannon, he was NOT ready for Mule Deer....at normal shooting distances (very often, WELL over 200 yards)......

I am an average to pretty good shot....and I shot far better than he with my old Yugo M48...at 100 yards...with iron sights. But, you know, he is "all set" for his hunt. Perhaps he expects that the muzzle blast from that cannon will be enough to cause a clean kill...I don't know.

Use a magnum or don't use a magnum.... that is a personal choice - fine with me, either way. But please, at least be able to shoot the bloody thing well...and not be afraid of it... before you decide you are "all set".
 
Guided Hunts?

Now you know why hunting guides are less then thrilled when a client shows up all "set up" for the big hunt with his brand new super-duper magnum.
 
The Evil Black Rifle!

OK, I just have to add gas to the fire. I use a .223 for deer hunting and have for 30+ years. To top it off it is one of those evil "Black Rifles" an AR-15. I have shot deer at 40 yards and at 250 yards. 95% of all the deer taken have been with one shot with the deer running no farther than 40 yards at the most. This whole argument (sorry discussion) really boils down to "can you shoot your gun" and shot placement.

All this said, if someone wants to use a cannon or a XXX super duper ultra mag ..... Go for it! And when someone tries to give you crap for it, and they will, just smile and say I like my rifle and I can hit what I aim at!

FH
 
This whole argument (sorry discussion) really boils down to "can you shoot your gun" and shot placement.
All this said, if someone wants to use a cannon or a XXX super duper ultra mag ..... Go for it!
Click to expand...

I think this was the whole point of the discussion ( sorry or not ), that most ( not all) people who use "Cannons" can not shoot them very well.

I'm interested in why you think this is a sorry discussion?
 
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