Bill DeShivs
New member
Because the .25 would work pretty well. It still does.
Who still use the 32 .for carry
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Cheapshooter
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Isn't the Bobcat only available in 22, or 25? Thought we were talking 32's
Cheapshooter
New member
I think you answered your own question. 100 years ago just the sight of a gun was nearly always enough. Even ten or fifteen years ago that may have still been the case. But the chance of just the threat of producing a weapon stopping someone is diminishing every day.
Plus the fact that more powerful guns, small enough to carry concealed were non existent 100 years ago.
Bill DeShivs
New member
The Bayard pocket auto was about the size of an LCP, and was available in .32 or .380. It was made about a hundred years ago. Evidently, it wasn't too popular, as they are very scarce.
Modern concealed carry training stems from police training. This is where the "nothing smaller than a .380" stuff comes in.
People carried, and successfully used .22 short, .25 acp, .32 acp, .32 S&W, .38 S&W. Only after WW2 did Americans fall into the "bigger is always better" way of thinking. Look at the 50s and 60s- with the post-war prosperity, cars got bigger, houses got bigger, EVERYTHING got bigger!
.25s and .32s will work just as well as they always did. Don't fool yourself into thinking caliber is more important than shot placement.
Modern concealed carry training stems from police training. This is where the "nothing smaller than a .380" stuff comes in.
People carried, and successfully used .22 short, .25 acp, .32 acp, .32 S&W, .38 S&W. Only after WW2 did Americans fall into the "bigger is always better" way of thinking. Look at the 50s and 60s- with the post-war prosperity, cars got bigger, houses got bigger, EVERYTHING got bigger!
.25s and .32s will work just as well as they always did. Don't fool yourself into thinking caliber is more important than shot placement.
Cheapshooter
New member
A person is never attacked by a stationary piece of paper shaped like a man's torso. Shot placement is a fine thing, and in self defence against a moving, charging, bobbing, and weaving target, a matter of luck as much as skill. That is where a larger wound channel created by a larger, more powerful round comes in. A 22, 25, or 32 caliber "needle poke" hole has a much lower chance of doing much damage. A larger diameter bullet with the ability to expand the way most quality bullets do today, has a much better chance of creating a much more severe, painful, debilitating wound.
Tap your thumb with a small jewellers hammer. Then slam it with a 16 oz. carpenters hammer. See which one is more debilitating.
Power doesn't make up for poor shot placement, but it helps turn the most likely near miss into a more likely fight stopping painful wound.
So keep carrying those sub caliber, "work just fine" little guns. Just make sure when that carjacker, ATM robber, or just general thug attacks you tell him to hold still so you can have perfect shot placement.
Tap your thumb with a small jewellers hammer. Then slam it with a 16 oz. carpenters hammer. See which one is more debilitating.
Power doesn't make up for poor shot placement, but it helps turn the most likely near miss into a more likely fight stopping painful wound.
So keep carrying those sub caliber, "work just fine" little guns. Just make sure when that carjacker, ATM robber, or just general thug attacks you tell him to hold still so you can have perfect shot placement.
HighValleyRanch
New member
Mavracer,
I have the blue box made in USA with the full jacketed.
I have the blue box made in USA with the full jacketed.
Just silly
Lets not forget the gun you have on you is better than the big caliber gun you left at home.
What's the old saying a hit with a small caliber is better than a miss with a big caliber?
Either way I personally believe we should not worry about what others are carrying and just carry what works best for each of us. Some of use have limitations or injuries that make shooting certain guns painful or unpleasant. I have noting to prove to anyone how tough I am for carrying X gun in X caliber, for carry I go for what I can shoot reliable and stay on target with. YMMV
Lets not forget the gun you have on you is better than the big caliber gun you left at home.
What's the old saying a hit with a small caliber is better than a miss with a big caliber?
Either way I personally believe we should not worry about what others are carrying and just carry what works best for each of us. Some of use have limitations or injuries that make shooting certain guns painful or unpleasant. I have noting to prove to anyone how tough I am for carrying X gun in X caliber, for carry I go for what I can shoot reliable and stay on target with. YMMV
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HisSoldier
New member
This discussion reminds me again of the watchmaker's auto, Kolibri I think. Not much more stopping power than airsoft, about as deadly too.
I just resurrected a Steyr 6.35 from a bag of busted old guns. Someone carried that in Europe long ago and the feel of it in his pocket gave him confidence. Out of that same bag I also brought an Ortgies back to life, in .32.
It's fun to look at 100 year old guns and wonder about who carried them.
But to the OP's concept, the .32 ACP isn't far from the .380 power. My personal concept is based on environment and what the treasure being protected is. At my church I carry a 1911 in .45 ACP.
I just resurrected a Steyr 6.35 from a bag of busted old guns. Someone carried that in Europe long ago and the feel of it in his pocket gave him confidence. Out of that same bag I also brought an Ortgies back to life, in .32.
It's fun to look at 100 year old guns and wonder about who carried them.
But to the OP's concept, the .32 ACP isn't far from the .380 power. My personal concept is based on environment and what the treasure being protected is. At my church I carry a 1911 in .45 ACP.
Silly is thinkin my posts are trying to change someone's perception or opinion that they've already made their choice based on. I know damn good and well Bill's love for his precious P32 is set in a very large immoveable stone.
But for the person reading this thread that's trying to make THEIR OWN decisions they should have access to facts as well as other opinions.
They might want to know that while the P32 is about 20% lighter than the P38T it's only about 2% smaller I only some of the dimensions.
They might want to know that the reality is that 20% difference in weight should make up for the ~20% difference in recoil energy produced by the larger round. (maybe not having a preconceived bias will allow a more accurate perception)
They might want to know that they'll be able to buy ammo at WalMart or that they'll have a choice of defense rounds some of which actually expand and pass the FBI protocol for heavy clothing.
They also may want to know that their physical limitations may be a double edged sword that these tiny guns are really hard to manipulate with arthritis and that a little larger gun IE a LC9 may be easier for them to manipulate.
They also might want to know there are ammo choices out there like the 115gr critical defense std pressure that don't produce a lot more recoil energy than some of the 380 loads do.
My father who's 88 had to figure this out the hard way after buying a LCP and finding it very difficult to operate and shoot his fine son traded him a LC9 for the LCP and got him some Hornady 115gr CD to shoot in it.
I own a few 32 caliber guns and love them all. I like Paul Hurrel's video's but the video on the 32 was not complete enough to draw any conclusions. It was very ammo limited and he only tested gold dots in the meat target. 32 FMJ ammo is notorious for tumbling the 380 is not. He never tested the Hornady XTP's or the Underwood Lehigh defense. How can anyone draw conclusions on just testing one ammo brand. The 380 "IS" more powerful a round over the 32 but ammunition manufactures today have put a whole lot more effort in perfecting that 380 round and almost no effort with the 32 rounds. I don't see any 32 critical defense from Hornady out there, they don't even make it, Why? There are many people out there that like or love the 32 acp round, myself included. Guns are just hole makers and the 32 can put a lot of holes in you very quickly. I own Tomcats, Kel Tek's, PPK 32 Walther and my newest addition the Beretta 81. All these guns are capable of putting a lot of 32 caliber holes in what your shooting at with speed and accuracy. My only complaint with the 32 is the semi rim design. I wish that it was rimless case, but other than that I like them a lot. They are accurate as hell, fun to shoot and would save your life if it ever arose to that level. I carried my Walther PPK 32 as a back up when I worked in Law Enforcement for years. It served me well. I don't get all hung up over calibers anymore, I just use what I have on me and thread the needle as fast and accurately as possible. The magic is not the bullet but the accuracy of placement, nothing else matters. So in conclusion, as Paul Hurrel would say, So don't try this at home, I'm what they call a professional. Nonsense, have fun at home. I'm still trying to figure out who THEY are?
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HighValleyRanch
New member
Actually, Hornady makes a better round for the .32.
Its called Hornady Custom .32 auto with a 60 grain XTP bullet.
Same or better than the critical defense line.
But the primer is harder than most so I have occassional fail to fire on the first trigger pull on one out of six rounds on my Seecamp.
Cheapshooter
New member
Jerrys, Just assimimg you were talking about the Betetta tip barrel 32's. Is your Bobcat a 32? If so I will keep a look out for one. Was wanting a Tomcat 32 until I read about the frame cracking.
O have the Taurus Poly copy, in 22, and it's a fun little plinker. Just thought a 32 might be mote fun.
O have the Taurus Poly copy, in 22, and it's a fun little plinker. Just thought a 32 might be mote fun.
Cheapshooter
New member
very good point mavracer.
The undeniable fact, proven by the laws of physics is that "bigger is better" is not just some 'Merican phenomenon, but the truth.
Many things are a compromise in any concealed carry gun. Concealability vs performance. Performance vs shootability. Size vs Capacity. on, and on. Each compromise must be weighed by each individual. But claiming a 25, or 32 is just as good as a mote powerfull round because it's only shot placement that counts is foolish. Especially when shot placement on a close up, moving, changing target is much more a thing of luck than skill.
The stainless ones and the blued ones with the wide slide are supposed to be better about not cracking I had a stainless one but broke your rule when the prices went crazy when they discontinued them, I did take the funds and buy a 22lr bobcats, I believe the 21a are all 22s and 25s.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Relying on blood loss to stop someone is a rather foolish thing to do. Even with a shot to a major artery, the recipient can shoot at you for 30 seconds to a couple of minutes.
That's a LONG time for someone to shoot at you.
The only sure physiological stop with a handgun is a central nervous system shot.
Do I want the biggest, baddest handgun if I'm going to have to shoot someone? Damned right, I do!
Do I want to carry a cannon with me all the time? Nope.
No one wants to get shot, even with a little gun. The sight of a gun stops most people.
Getting shot hurts. Most people don't want to get shot multiple times.
Even if the pain doesn't stop them, the thought that they really need immediate medical attention becomes pretty apparent. This fear can cause a stop.
Physical/psychological shock can also cause a stop.
When the 300 lb.. angel dust-crazed badass biker attacks me, I guess I'm SOL, unless I can hit the central nervous system.
Just to clarify- I have carried guns from a .22 short mini revolver to a .45 automatic in the 40+ years I have carried. If I were presenting myself into dangerous situations (like law enforcement does) I would carry a full-sized gun. But for every day suburban carry, a small gun generally meets my needs. I do keep a 9mm close by as a "back up," should I be able to get to it.
That's a LONG time for someone to shoot at you.
The only sure physiological stop with a handgun is a central nervous system shot.
Do I want the biggest, baddest handgun if I'm going to have to shoot someone? Damned right, I do!
Do I want to carry a cannon with me all the time? Nope.
No one wants to get shot, even with a little gun. The sight of a gun stops most people.
Getting shot hurts. Most people don't want to get shot multiple times.
Even if the pain doesn't stop them, the thought that they really need immediate medical attention becomes pretty apparent. This fear can cause a stop.
Physical/psychological shock can also cause a stop.
When the 300 lb.. angel dust-crazed badass biker attacks me, I guess I'm SOL, unless I can hit the central nervous system.
Just to clarify- I have carried guns from a .22 short mini revolver to a .45 automatic in the 40+ years I have carried. If I were presenting myself into dangerous situations (like law enforcement does) I would carry a full-sized gun. But for every day suburban carry, a small gun generally meets my needs. I do keep a 9mm close by as a "back up," should I be able to get to it.