Who here thinks that the .45ACP is obselete!?!?
- Thread starter 45automan
- Start date
.45ACP is obsolete to those clueless types that are easily swayed with what so and so said, what the latest gun rag said, or what inconclusive OSS data says.
These are people who are unable to think for themselves. They will hop on the trend wagon and ride it until the trend begins to fade.
Then when some other high pressure wonder caliber becomes available, they repeat the process.
Think of them as "OSSS" (One Shot Stop Sheeple)
Baaa... baaaaa... Marshall said blah blah blah...baaaa....Sanow said blah blah...baaaa...
The bottom line is, .45ACP is the choice of professionals. Professionals generally think for themselves.
High pressure wonder calibers are best left to the armchair experts and the OSSS. Baaa...
These are people who are unable to think for themselves. They will hop on the trend wagon and ride it until the trend begins to fade.
Then when some other high pressure wonder caliber becomes available, they repeat the process.
Think of them as "OSSS" (One Shot Stop Sheeple)
Baaa... baaaaa... Marshall said blah blah blah...baaaa....Sanow said blah blah...baaaa...
The bottom line is, .45ACP is the choice of professionals. Professionals generally think for themselves.
High pressure wonder calibers are best left to the armchair experts and the OSSS. Baaa...
I carry a 45 acp because it's the right round for the 1911 government. I carry a 9mm because it's the right round for the P7. I feel comfortably armed with either. When with my wife, I wear either. When apart, the P7 goes with her, the 1911 with me. I require no further handguns for defense. Next option? A rifle. Everybody else had an opinion, I wanted to express one also. hangfar.
Weapons may become obsolete given new conditions. The machine gun killed the Cavalry ( on horses ). Then armor replaced cavalry in mission. Then airmobile troops and so on. Still infantry, artillery, and cavalry roles on the battlefield.
More often, they become obsolescent - still functional but replaced by other designs that are not necessarily an improvement at the weapon's mission, but close enough, and more easily or quickly or cheaply made. Witness the Thompson 45. It still does everything it ever did, every bit as well. The Battle rifle has been replaced by the assault rifle for general issue but when you need a heavy caliber for long range or penetration it comes back out in a hurry.
The pistol's usefullness on the battlefield stays hotly debated, as does the role of edged weapons outside some specialties.
(Then again, there are those in a position to know that say in awe that the fastest thing you'll ever see are Ghurkhas making a downhill Khukuri charge.)
The Single Action Army, the No. 4 Enfield and Garand, the khukuri, gladius, et. al., still do their purpose about as well as *YOU* allow them to do what they were made to do.
Guess what happened when the old Gunsite (Cooper) put a lever action 30-30 against a AK on the same course? IIRC, outside of 7 yards the 30-30 took it all.
Plus the single action cowboy gun loaded with glasers or quik-shok or the lever gun loaded with premium hunting loads makes a good hit into a whole other ballgame next to ball.
And in this day of 6-8" bladed military combat knives and under 4" folding fighters, television has made pictures of ghurkas with foot-and-a-half long o.a.l. khukuris psychologically darn close to being a terror weapon.
I go with Broken Arrow. Your primary weapon is your mind, and if you will do most any weapon can be made to do with. As someone once said, your first gun only has to be good enough to get you your second gun.
[This message has been edited by Rusty S (edited September 01, 2000).]
More often, they become obsolescent - still functional but replaced by other designs that are not necessarily an improvement at the weapon's mission, but close enough, and more easily or quickly or cheaply made. Witness the Thompson 45. It still does everything it ever did, every bit as well. The Battle rifle has been replaced by the assault rifle for general issue but when you need a heavy caliber for long range or penetration it comes back out in a hurry.
The pistol's usefullness on the battlefield stays hotly debated, as does the role of edged weapons outside some specialties.
(Then again, there are those in a position to know that say in awe that the fastest thing you'll ever see are Ghurkhas making a downhill Khukuri charge.)
The Single Action Army, the No. 4 Enfield and Garand, the khukuri, gladius, et. al., still do their purpose about as well as *YOU* allow them to do what they were made to do.
Guess what happened when the old Gunsite (Cooper) put a lever action 30-30 against a AK on the same course? IIRC, outside of 7 yards the 30-30 took it all.
Plus the single action cowboy gun loaded with glasers or quik-shok or the lever gun loaded with premium hunting loads makes a good hit into a whole other ballgame next to ball.
And in this day of 6-8" bladed military combat knives and under 4" folding fighters, television has made pictures of ghurkas with foot-and-a-half long o.a.l. khukuris psychologically darn close to being a terror weapon.
I go with Broken Arrow. Your primary weapon is your mind, and if you will do most any weapon can be made to do with. As someone once said, your first gun only has to be good enough to get you your second gun.
[This message has been edited by Rusty S (edited September 01, 2000).]
Alex Johnson
New member
Here's my two cents. I don't honestly believe that with proper shot placement it is going to much matter if you hit them with a 40, 357 sig, or a 45 acp as long as appropriate ammunition is used for each. However, I do feel that their is enough justification to prefer the 45 over some of these other calibers simply based on the diameter of the bullet. Lets face it, their are enough variables to consider when dealing with bullet expansion so that their is something to be said for starting out big initially and not placing so much emphasis on the need for proper expansion. If a 9mm fails to expand you have a a 9mm size hole, if the 45 fails to expand you will still have a .45" hole to contend with.
The thing is, most studies show the .45 as the top dawg. Sure, some of the new cartridges come close, but none have dethroned the .45.
The study that might seek to dethrone it would be MS because they focus on high energy bullets and the standard .45 does not fit that parameter.
But, MS still places the low energy 230gr .45 at the top of their list. Even they cannot deny the effectiveness of the low energy, big bullet, 45.
The fact is, the .45 works. Even in the worst situation of it not expanding, it still works. Even when compared to the high energy rounds, it is still on top. There is not one shred of evidence that any of the newer calibers are better. Perhaps the .357 Sig is more suited to penetrating cars so it might be a good choice for law enforcement (I would prefer a 10mm though), but across the board, the .45 is just as good or better than all these new rounds. And, the ability to penetrate cars and walls and such can be a BAD thing also, depending on the situation.
The only thing these new rounds have accomplished is to put decent cartridges in small frame guns. But at the same time they kick real hard too.
My double stack .45 fits my hand great (because I am a large man with large hands), and it has softer recoil than these new high-pressure rounds.
My Glock 30 is %100 reliable out of the box, in every position I have fired it and every ammo. It is extremely accurate. It holds the maximum rounds by law (10+1). In the best case, the .45 outperforms all the other rounds in pure stopping power, and in the worst case, it is still a .45 caliber bullet which is better than the worst case for other rounds. I can bet my life on the .45.
These new rounds are good, but all they are doing is trying to get a 9mm gun to do what the .45 was doing all along.
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited September 01, 2000).]
The study that might seek to dethrone it would be MS because they focus on high energy bullets and the standard .45 does not fit that parameter.
But, MS still places the low energy 230gr .45 at the top of their list. Even they cannot deny the effectiveness of the low energy, big bullet, 45.
The fact is, the .45 works. Even in the worst situation of it not expanding, it still works. Even when compared to the high energy rounds, it is still on top. There is not one shred of evidence that any of the newer calibers are better. Perhaps the .357 Sig is more suited to penetrating cars so it might be a good choice for law enforcement (I would prefer a 10mm though), but across the board, the .45 is just as good or better than all these new rounds. And, the ability to penetrate cars and walls and such can be a BAD thing also, depending on the situation.
The only thing these new rounds have accomplished is to put decent cartridges in small frame guns. But at the same time they kick real hard too.
My double stack .45 fits my hand great (because I am a large man with large hands), and it has softer recoil than these new high-pressure rounds.
My Glock 30 is %100 reliable out of the box, in every position I have fired it and every ammo. It is extremely accurate. It holds the maximum rounds by law (10+1). In the best case, the .45 outperforms all the other rounds in pure stopping power, and in the worst case, it is still a .45 caliber bullet which is better than the worst case for other rounds. I can bet my life on the .45.
These new rounds are good, but all they are doing is trying to get a 9mm gun to do what the .45 was doing all along.
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited September 01, 2000).]
I like .45, personally. It doesn't make all that much noise, operates at low pressures and doesn't end up using much of the kinetic energy to expand a smallish projectile.
.45 would be choice for open carry. 9x19 or 9 Makarov or .380 would be the choice for concealed.
Is .45 obsolete - yes. Of course, 9x19 is about equally old. Reloading issues aside, 7.62x25 and .357sig seem more efficient but bottlenecked ammo has its own set of problems.
.45 would be choice for open carry. 9x19 or 9 Makarov or .380 would be the choice for concealed.
Is .45 obsolete - yes. Of course, 9x19 is about equally old. Reloading issues aside, 7.62x25 and .357sig seem more efficient but bottlenecked ammo has its own set of problems.
The US Navy does provide the SEALs with various tools for different jobs. Sigs and HKs in the smaller calibers are included in the armory to meet all those wonderful NATO requirements the politicians tell them they must meet. My friends from the Teams tell me WTSHTF and they are deployed, each man chooses the tool he needs for that mission. Each of my friends ALSO tell me that when THEY went out, a 1911 based .45 acp was on their hip the majority of the time. Even if it meant taking their own personal pistol.
Bubba ... make mine 1911 and .45 acp
[This message has been edited by Bubba (edited September 01, 2000).]
Bubba ... make mine 1911 and .45 acp
[This message has been edited by Bubba (edited September 01, 2000).]
Nope its not obselete.
And for the record the reason its still around in JSOC/SEALS etc its an OFFENSIVE pistol designed to be used with a silencer.
Almost all 45 ammo is subsonic and therefore is easier to suppress (with a large volume can) whereas the "other" caliber of choice 9mm in ball trim is supersonic.
Which is better? Niether. A well placed shot is a well placed shot. Wonder bullets exist for both calibers, however what's cool about the 45 is the low pressure/high payload ratio. Pressure build up in a 9mm case is extreme given the size of the case. (if you reload you know what I'm talking about)
Anyway.. its big, its slow, it has all the wonderbullets known to man available.. yeah I still like the 45.
And for the record the reason its still around in JSOC/SEALS etc its an OFFENSIVE pistol designed to be used with a silencer.
Almost all 45 ammo is subsonic and therefore is easier to suppress (with a large volume can) whereas the "other" caliber of choice 9mm in ball trim is supersonic.
Which is better? Niether. A well placed shot is a well placed shot. Wonder bullets exist for both calibers, however what's cool about the 45 is the low pressure/high payload ratio. Pressure build up in a 9mm case is extreme given the size of the case. (if you reload you know what I'm talking about)
Anyway.. its big, its slow, it has all the wonderbullets known to man available.. yeah I still like the 45.
Eric of IN
New member
To borrow an old racing term, "There's no replacement for displacement."
Eric
Eric
I'm quite partial to my .45 ACP's, so I may be biased. I've been playing with my 7.62x25 CZ-52 a lot lately, working up handloads to approximate the stuff that the Eastern Europeans used in the gun. That's a serious high-pressure round, a .30 caliber pill zipping along near 1700fps really does raise hell on the target end. For something as obsolete, it's quite intriguing, although I doubt that CorBon will offer a defense load any time soon, heehee! I first qualified with the 1911A1 when I joined the Air Force 14 years ago, and although I qualify yearly now with the Beretta 92, my personal CCW pistol is an Officer's ACP. For playing around, dropping steel and the like, I have the 7.62x25 CZ-52, 9mm Luger P-08, and more than a few .38's and .357's in both autoloader and revolver form. For business, I'll stick with the .45 ACP.
Badger Arms
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 355sigfan:
I like the 45 and its an ok round but it is obsolete despite its unreasonable popularity. The 45 acp delivers no more stopping power than the 40 sw and 357 sig which fit into smaller guns. ALso there is no armor piercing 45 acp round while this would be easy to do with a 357 sig. The 224 boz is the way of the futer.
PAT
[/quote]
I thought you were serious there for a minute. You're very funny.
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God made us in his own image.
Thomas Jefferson made us free.
John Browning made us equal.
Without Browning, we might not know about the other two...
I like the 45 and its an ok round but it is obsolete despite its unreasonable popularity. The 45 acp delivers no more stopping power than the 40 sw and 357 sig which fit into smaller guns. ALso there is no armor piercing 45 acp round while this would be easy to do with a 357 sig. The 224 boz is the way of the futer.
PAT
[/quote]
I thought you were serious there for a minute. You're very funny.
------------------
God made us in his own image.
Thomas Jefferson made us free.
John Browning made us equal.
Without Browning, we might not know about the other two...
Badger Arms
New member
The 9mm is for Woosies. Those who want nothing but the best will always choose the 45acp. That having been said, there are a WHOLE BUNCH of WOOSIES in our police departments and military forces. While the 45acp is not obsolete, it is certainly hard to use.
Therefore, I implore every one of our enemies to adopt and use the 9mm to the fullest. As for me, I'd certainly rather be shot with one if I had the choice.
To anybody who THINKS the 45 is obsolete, I'd be glad to give them a demonstration. Mine holds 15 rounds -- and I've got two spare mags also. That means I can demonstrate for 43 people without pausing to load mags again.
Finally, as to the effectiveness of the 357 Sig and 40 S&W, I do believe the 38 Super and 38/40 beat them to the punch. Nobody said either of these was a bad cartridge either. 1929 and 1874 respectively. Obsolete my behind. Any dummy who believes that the 357 Sig and 40 S&W are modern in terms of ballistics is fooling themselves.
------------------
God made us in his own image.
Thomas Jefferson made us free.
John Browning made us equal.
Without Browning, we might not know about the other two...
Therefore, I implore every one of our enemies to adopt and use the 9mm to the fullest. As for me, I'd certainly rather be shot with one if I had the choice.
To anybody who THINKS the 45 is obsolete, I'd be glad to give them a demonstration. Mine holds 15 rounds -- and I've got two spare mags also. That means I can demonstrate for 43 people without pausing to load mags again.
Finally, as to the effectiveness of the 357 Sig and 40 S&W, I do believe the 38 Super and 38/40 beat them to the punch. Nobody said either of these was a bad cartridge either. 1929 and 1874 respectively. Obsolete my behind. Any dummy who believes that the 357 Sig and 40 S&W are modern in terms of ballistics is fooling themselves.
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God made us in his own image.
Thomas Jefferson made us free.
John Browning made us equal.
Without Browning, we might not know about the other two...
Billy Dale
Inactive
Few .45 Jhp's expand, especially in short carry gun barrels, and the 230 gr slugs are the worst of the lot. They perform poorly on animals, which I consider to be a more reliable indicator than bs third hand stories. If you will go to 1911.com (I think)there is a replication of the actual results of the Thompson LaGuarde animal test of 1905. The .45 ACP didn't exist yet, and nothing in the test justified their recommendation. The testers just LIED, that's all. Very few 1911's were used in the Philippines, that was mostly over-with before the 1911 was general-issue. The rifles werent stopping the Moros, So the .45 Lcolt revolvers didn't, either. If you load the 165 gr Hydro Shock to 1200 fps, the .45 is an ok load, but it's nothing special. The 800 fps loads sure ain't much on feral dogs. The 224 Boz only has a lousy 400 ft lbs. That is nothing. A 460 Rowland can drive a 70 gr slug to 2400 fps, for 900 ft lbs, and it has less recoil than .45 ACP ball.
45ACP, 230g Golden Saber at 780fps, my preferred carry combo.
I believe this to be one of the most effective civilian carry combinations.
Other professionals prefer this EXACT SAME combination, only slightly more velocity (825-875fps).
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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
I believe this to be one of the most effective civilian carry combinations.
Other professionals prefer this EXACT SAME combination, only slightly more velocity (825-875fps).
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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
Stephen Ewing
New member
I'm reminded of the guy who told me the 9mm was superior to the .45, and used a scenario north of the Arctic Circle in the dead of winter against heavily-clothed individuals, at ranges greater than 200 meters, out of a submachinegun to prove it. Once I realized how common that situation is, I had to agree with him. 
Reminiscences aside, of course the .45 is obsolete. So is the Constitution. Put together a list of things society has no use for anymore like courtesy, self-respect, individual rights, or responsibility, and you'll find the obsolete .45 isn't in bad company.
Revel in its role as the crotchety old fart that can still outperform most of the youngsters. It stands for days gone by, better days in some ways, but in some respects it's like a jousting lance: Hits like heck, and still the sign of a chivalrous gentleman.
Steve
Reminiscences aside, of course the .45 is obsolete. So is the Constitution. Put together a list of things society has no use for anymore like courtesy, self-respect, individual rights, or responsibility, and you'll find the obsolete .45 isn't in bad company.
Revel in its role as the crotchety old fart that can still outperform most of the youngsters. It stands for days gone by, better days in some ways, but in some respects it's like a jousting lance: Hits like heck, and still the sign of a chivalrous gentleman.
Steve
Ok, we all are concerned about self defense and the tools we use to protect ourselves and our loved ones. Truth is that there are a lot of good defensive calibers that will do the job. The case for the .45s stopping power is well established. The trick is to put the bullet where it counts. And what is the best way to insure you can do that? Practice, practice and more practice. The more you shoot the better you get. And no, you don't have to always shoot full power defense loads all the time either. Casual plinking works just as well since it builds on familuarity and handling of your defensive firearm.
The .45acp can be loaded with inexpensive lead bullets at low velocities and still be incredibly accurate. Making practice cheap, relaxing and downright fun. Let's see your .40, .357sig or whatever wonder caliber do that.
For pure defensive purposes, the .45acp may have its equals, but it has no betters.
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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
The .45acp can be loaded with inexpensive lead bullets at low velocities and still be incredibly accurate. Making practice cheap, relaxing and downright fun. Let's see your .40, .357sig or whatever wonder caliber do that.
For pure defensive purposes, the .45acp may have its equals, but it has no betters.
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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
Some folks in the 9mm/.357sig/.40 crowds seem to have forgotten that the .45ACP can be had in more than 230gr. varieties. It can be heavy and slow with 230gr.JHPs which in newer loadings are extremely reliable expanders or lighter/faster loads through 200gr,185gr and 165gr. down to 115gr.+P Aguilla (sp?). These hot loaded light bullet loads nip on the heels of full power 10mm energy wise. With a .45ACP you can do it all,just pick yer ammo. Best of all just about every weight of .45 with the right bullet is a very effective stopper by any yardstick you care to measure it by. I like 9mm,.40,.357mag. etc. I have and do use them for defensive purposes and feel very well protected and secure in their abilities but if I knew unavoidable trouble was on it`s way I`d still reach for my .45. Marcus