Who here agrees with Rob Pincus idea that practicing malfunction drills is not needed

[ezmiraldo]

Rob,

Thanks you for your input. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too! I've changed the title of the thread to avoid misrepresenting your position -- sorry if it initially took your words out of context.

I agree that sticking to the conventional wisdom is not always the best strategy (technology changes, understanding of issues improves, skills change, etc.). While I agree with your take on trying to get rid of malfunctioning guns and not viewing malfunctions as normal/routine, I still disagree on not emphasizing malfunction clearing in training/practice. To me it boils down to this: Muscle memory. If a critical skill isn't repeatedly practiced, every range trip, until the point it is done automatically without thought, then when SHTF and one is fighting for his life, lack of muscle memory might be a deadly disadvantage. It seems to me during highly stressful fights for one's life, probability of inducing malfunctions goes up due to the nature of the deadly encounter (plus, there's this annoying murphy's law)... My sig p226 never malfunctions (had only one slight hickup during 1500 rounds fired from it). But, I practice clearing all types of malfunctions two handed, and with each hand single-handedly during every practice (takes about 10% of range time), and much more extensively during dry-fire practice. Is this wrong, in your opinion?

I think this is an interesting and important conversation to have, and your take on this issue is much appreciated. I wish more experts/instructors would chime in, like you did... Thank you for your thoughts on this!

 

[Rob Pincus]

Thanks you for your input. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too! I've changed the title of the thread to avoid misrepresenting your position -- sorry if it initially took your words out of context.

Thanks, Ezmiraldo, but I still don't think you've represented my position.

"Rob Pincus says Malfunction Clearing shouldn't need to be a basic defensive firearms skill and shouldn't be obsessed over. It should be thought of as an advanced skill and practiced sparingly." is more like it.

Always glad to chime in and, I agree that these discussions are important!

-RJP

 

[Derbel McDillet]

My point is: If training time is limited, spend your time on shooting.

How much time does it take to include a dummy cartridge when you load a magazine and perform tap/rack when your pistol fails to fire? How much time does it take to perform a combat reload when you empty a magazine? How much time does it take to occasionally install a doublefeed and progress through your immediate actions to clear it? When you integrate this training into your regimen it barely makes a dent in your precious trigger time. In addition it trains you to deal with the unexpected and drive on.

A good article that's relevant to this discussion - http://tacticalprofessor.wordpress....value-of-training/comment-page-1/#comment-750

 

[jim8115]

I have a XD40 that i have put probably 40k rounds through. It has never failed, not even once, EXCEPT when the firing pin broke at about 30k. No amount of training is going to get you out of that. Carry a backup

 

[zombietactics]

How much time does it take to include a dummy cartridge when you load a magazine and perform tap/rack when your pistol fails to fire? How much time does it take to perform a combat reload when you empty a magazine? How much time does it take to occasionally install a doublefeed and progress through your immediate actions to clear it? When you integrate this training into your regimen it barely makes a dent in your precious trigger time. In addition it trains you to deal with the unexpected and drive on.

To be fair, you're mixing up a couple of things. I don't think anyone considers an empty gun at slide-lock a "malfunction", although it's certainly a case where the gun isn't able to be fired, and needs to be "fixed up" with efficiency and certainty.

(Responding more generally to those in this thread from here on ...)

Regarding dummy-round drills. I think they're great as a part of a training class for purposes of demonstrating HOW a malfunction occurs.

I don't think they have a lot of value in repeating over-n-over-n-over, if you know ahead of time that your mags have a "dud" or two in them somewhere. That expectation of a failure takes it out of the realm of learning to react to an unexpected event.

I have attended classes where a partner loads your mags for you all day (or multiple days) long and is expected to introduce a few dummies at random. That seems like a better representation of something closer to reality. Learning to react to an unexpected event seems like better training.

I think similarly about stovepipes and (and some other more-likely occurrences which scarcely get mention in most classes) Setting them up does nothing except allow you to deal with a known situation. Once you've done it a few times for sake of reasonable speed, efficiency and certainty, I don't know what value there is in getting in a whole lot of reps. (Keeping in mind that some number of reps are required to gain that level of skill in the first place)

Tap-Rack-Bang (or Tap-Rack-Assess if you prefer) covers in-fight malfs pretty well, as Type-1 and Type-2 are far-and-away the most likely of some possible occurrences which are already squarely in the category of "probably not going to happen". That's a basic skill, which is almost identical to the steps required to load an empty gun (whether or not it's at slide lock).

You're going to get plenty of practice tapping/racking anyway (while reloading from slide lock), so I don' know what utility there is in repeatedly setting up artificial malfunctions, just so you can perform the same action. You'll have practiced "the fix" dozens of times already.

If you are regularly experiencing these (T1, T2)issues, there is far more survival value in changing your ammo or getting a better gun, than obsessing over fixing malfunctions which shouldn't be occurring all that often in the first place.

I kind of put it in the category of getting really good at pumping up a tire with a slow leak ... that's addressing the wrong end of the problem.

Regarding Type-3 double-feeds ... most people set them up wrong (?) in the first place, as I think someone already noted. Or at least it can be said that they only set them up in one particularly easy way, because setting them up with a partially-chambered round in a giant pain-in-the-neck. There are at least 3 ways a gun can double-feed of which I am aware, and squibs often look at first glance like a double-feed ... so maybe make that 4 ways?

Stripping the mag, racking and reloading will solve most T3 problems. (Squibs are a subject all to themselves).

How many reps does it take to "get good" at that? I have no idea, but I don't think repeatedly setting up a drill trains you to do much but set up the drill (past a certain point).