Who here agrees with Rob Pincus idea that practicing malfunction drills is not needed

Hey guys! Thanks for your input. I do not mean this post as a personal attack on Rob Pincus -- he seems to know what he is talking about. I enjoy and fully agree with most of his thoughts, and learn valuable info from his videos. That's why when I heard him say that practicing malfunction clearances should be considered an advanced skill and not emphasized in routine training, I was taken aback (this goes against pretty much everything I've heard/learned in the past).

I agree with this part of his statement: If one's ssw/hd/sd gun malfunctions frequently, this gun gotta go (that's why I moved from glocks to sigs two years ago). Malfunctions can be ammo related, user-error related, etc., but they can also be related to how user's hand interfaces with the firearm. Sometimes anatomy of one's palm is incompatible with certain firearms, which induces malfunctions, and when that's the case, moving to a different firearm is wise. However, I disagree with the part about not regularly practicing malfunction clearance drills.

As for the context of this remark -- if memory serves me, it was an off-the-cuff remark, almost made in passing when discussing some other issue. I was researching Pincus training program, and stumbled on that video by accident (it was either video on his website or on youtube). Sorry, I do not have a link to it. I've tried to look up the video to post a link here, but I don't remember what the video was called (and there are a ton of videos with Pincus out there...). As I said, it was a comment made in passing -- and if people who trained with Rob say he emphasizes malfunction drills in his classes, I take their word for it. Again, I'm not trying to badmouth Rob Pincus, just discuss the idea that clearing malfunctions isn't as important as conventionally thought due to high quality of today's firearms.
 
@kraigwy. ..how many rounds do you consider sufficient to determine a gun is reliable?


All: I don't think you need to spend a lot of practice time on malfunction dri)s, but it should be a regular part of your training. And the more you shoot, the more practice you will get both on shooting and malfunctions.
 
@kraigwy. ..how many rounds do you consider sufficient to determine a gun is reliable?
Click to expand...

All of them.

It takes one round to determine a gun is not reliable.

I want to know where you find these guns that "never" malfunction
Click to expand...

I have tens of thousands of round through my Model 28 I was issued in 1974, carried for 20 years in LE and still shoot it now after my dept. gave it to me when I retired.

I have thousands of round through my M642 I carry 24/7.

Neither have failed me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is something to consider: A huge majority of civilian SD shootings occur between 5-6 feet. At that distance, how much time do you get for immediate action drills.

Something else I consider a malfunction, though not the guns fault. That being failure or delay in getting the safety off when you get ready to shoot.

I see it all the time in my SD classes, and I see it all the time in competition.
I've done it my self in competition switching from a 1911 (safety is pushed down) and my 92fs where the safety pushes up.

When that, ore any other malfunction occurs, it not only effects, not only the current shot, but future shots because you're thinking of the lost time, and your score, not thinking about the next shot.

I was told, many years ago when I started shooting high power matches. A high power match IS NOT an 80 shot match, its 80 - 1 shot matches. Meaning the only shot that counts is the one you are taking now, you cant do that if you're worrying about the last shot, is the gun going to malfunction, are you going to forget the safety.

I do that, I shouldn't, but I do, when shooting a match I find my self thinking, "safety up, safety up" in stead of concentrating on fundamentals.

I shoot ICORE and other matches with a Model 64, I don't worry about malfunctions or safety's. And for some odd reason I shoot it better then my semis.

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for this, just take in a few action pistol matches and watch the shooters.
 
A few observations in no particular order:

"Malfunction" can mean a lot of things.

It could mean you were shooting crap ammo. If you want to get a lot of malfunction practice, buy reloads from "that local guy with really great prices".

Crap ammo is not a "gun malfunction", but rather an ammo problem. If you are getting regular malfs with brand-name factory ammo, it's a gun problem.

If you have a gun which is picky about which ammo it "likes", it's a gun problem. That's not a carry gun, IMHO.

I have guns with thousands of rounds through them (under hard-training, uncleaned for days conditions, rain, snow, dirt, blood) and zero gun-problem malfunctions. One of these is my Glock 19, which is one of my carry guns for that reason.

I have guns which experience gun-related malfunctions so rarely, that it amounts to "virtually never". I have a police-trade-in Glock 22 for instance, which has been converted to 9mm ... a total of ONE malfunction (stovepipe) in several years, and it was in the hands of a newbie shooter at the time ... so who knows what happened there?

I have several guns which have only 500 or so rounds through them. That's not enough to call them "reliable" IMHO. "Reliable" (for me) means that I have fired no less than 1k practice/FMJ rounds without a gun-related malfunction ... and about 100 rounds of carry/duty ammo.

Glock, XD, M&P, and Ruger SR seem to just plain work. There are other good guns out there, I just don't have as much experience with them.

Every time there are at least two 1911s on the line for a training class, one will have a problem before the class is done. I don't necessarily think that means 1911s are crap, it just means they require a little more TLC.

A well-maintained 1911 shoots better than anything else. It's a perfectly viable carry choice if you give it the love it needs.

With a decent gun, malfunctions are actually quite rare. That's little consolation if "rare" mean that the one time it happens is when you desperately need it to work.

As such, malfunction clearances should be trained to be simple, efficient, relatively fast and something close to reactive-second-nature. Practice as much as you need to be reasonably proficient, but don't waste a lot of time trying to get that extra 1/10th of a second faster. You'll be better off using that practice time to shoot better.

Given the realities of a citizen-self-defense ... you might get a chance to clear a failure-to-fire or a stovepipe. If you get a type-3/double-feed ... your first thought should be running away or doing something besides fixing the gun. If you can clear one of these while running like hell ... do so. If not, wait til you have some combination of distance, concealment, and cover
 
Last edited:
Rob Pincus did not get where he is by making it up. I suspect what he is saying is that most people that carry weapons for personal defense do not devote as much time to training and practice as we should. Maybe our time is limited, access to a live fire range is hard to come by, ammo cost too much or whatever. Heck, I have a pistol range in my back yard and I have a hard time getting out there on a regular basis. The point is, when your training opportunities are limited, you need to work on the most likely issues and realistically, malfunctions aint one of them, especialy type 3. And I agree, if thats a common ocurance, you need to get a better gun.
The basic tap, rack, bang drill, is as easy as sticking a few dummy rounds in your mags and will cover most problems caused by human error, bad ammo, and worn out magazines. And it does not require disruption of your regular training routine to work on it, its just part of the deal so that your reaction becomes automatic, as it should be.
Frankly, in over fifteen years of shooting,competion, serious training classes, and practice,the only times I've had to clear a type three is when it was set up during a training senario.
I wonder why everytime Rob says something a little out of the mainstream, so many people go off the rails. Remember when he suggested stagging home defense weapons in gun safes in your kids room? You would have thought he was advocating that your 7 year old grab an AR and fight his way to Mom and Dads room. Good grief.:rolleyes:
 
A single dummy cartridge randomly placed in every magazine provides substantial training opportunity to instill "tap/rack".

Clearing an "authentic" stovepipe stoppage, using "tap/rack", can frequently produce a doublefeed - because with an "authentic" stovepipe a round may be partially chambered and "tap/rack" can leave that cartridge in the action while the slide engages and attempts to feed the next cartridge. (Whereas "training" stovepipes are usually inserted without the magazine installed and as a result the conditions are different than an "authentic" stovepipe.)

Inserting a doublefeed stoppage for training at the range results in a "dry-fire" experience: you lock the slide open, put a spent case in the chamber, seat a loaded magazine, release the slide, and then play make-believe that the gun jammed while you were firing it. Guess what? You can easily perform dryfire training entirely at home to clear a doublefeed stoppage. Instead of a magazine loaded with live ammo you use a magazine loaded with dummy cartridges - and you perform the same immediate actions as you would at the range. The only difference is you don't get the "bang" at the end.

Much has been discussed about the reliability of pistols. Reliability in a shooting incident may be compromised by many factors not under our control, and the ability to quickly get the gun back up and running to stay in the fight is a vital skill that should not be rationalized away.
 
Last edited:
One of the courses I took required us to not only practice clearing simulated malfunctions (using dummy rounds), but to do so in low light, blindfolded, and with three fingers of the off hand taped together (to simulate injury). Doing all three at once was a real eye opener.
 
Probability of ever being in a self defense gun fight: estimate 1 in 10,000 per lifetime

Probability of a pistol malfunction: estimate 1 in 4000 rounds, based on my personal experience

Assuming 10 rounds fired in a gunfight (well above average), my lifetime probability of having a pistol malfunction during a gunfight is 10 x (1/4000) x (1/10,000) = 1 in 4 million. So if I live my life 4 million times, I can expect to be in a self defense gun fight 400 times, and in just one case I will have a pistol malfunction during the gunfight. Gosh I am worried.

Now add to that the probability of having no vision and an injured hand?

Why not practice in arctic conditions with mittens? Or while hanging from a rope while rappelling? or while skydiving? what if you need to engage an enemy while in a burning building, and your gun is too hot to handle with bare hands? Should you practice firing under water?

It can get really silly, really fast.
 
Not that I agree with Pincus but the reality is that you are training for something which is statistically unlikely to happen if not outright improbable of happening to 99% of people who own guns or carry guns. The chances of most of us having to use a gun in self defense and then having a malfunction is so small that training for that event might not be worth it depending how much time you are putting into it.

IMHO for a conceal carry holder the draw and deployment of the gun and getting shots on target is the most important skill that you will need. Being able to clear leather gun at the ready and deliver rounds will allow one to win a confrontation with a gun. This is the primary focus of my training. YMMV

In the end do what you are comfortable with and makes you feel safe and prepared. Don't worry about the rest. IMHO
 
btmj, with all due respect, how do the following variables fit into your equation?:
- stress induced malfunctions (gripping the gun in an odd way, assuming quick and improper grip, inadvertently activating slide stop lever, etc.) - weird things happen under stress
- being knocked to the ground and having malfunctions (dirt gets into action, creates failure to chamber, etc.)
- firing from unusual positions and having limp-wristing-related failure to eject or failure to chamber
- wrestling for the gun, and getting slide out of battery (or pressing the gun against the body of the BG, and getting slide out of battery)
- exchanging fire and being shot into one's hand, having to continue the fight one handed, and resulting limp-wristing and having to clear malfunctions one handed (try this at home: stand in front of the mirror, aim your gun at your reflection -- pretending reflection is the BG, and see where center-mass is on the "BG"; chances are it is right behind the hands holding the gun)
- etc., etc. (no firing under water, or doing rambo stuff inside burning building)

standing still at the range shooting bullseye is one thing, but owning gun for SD and considering very likely scenarios involved in gun-fight is another thing altogether. thinking about malfunctions should also be different for both situations.
 
I taught with Rob at Valhalla back in the day. Everyday sharing thoughts and concepts and occasionaly butting heads about things

While i didnt agree with all his teaching concepts, in alot of ways he has a point here. The chances of a malfunction during your gunfight are pretty small. To spend a large part of your training time devoted to clearing said malfunctions is not an efficient use of that time.

That being said, learning malfunction clearences and thereby more about the workings of your gun, is not a bad thing.

I think its more about the confidence in your ability to manipulate the system then the actual need to clear the pistol in a crisis.

So, do i spend training time in clearences drills? Yep, but its MAYBE 5% of the time spent on actual shooting skills. You should have a plan when you train. Spend some time on close range unsighted fire. Spend some time at longer distance using the sights. Figure out WHERE that transition needs to happen for you. Spend some time doing reloads (again not a probable event, given avg # of shots fired). Spend some time clearing malfunctions.

Id rather have the skill and not need it then need the skill and not have it
 
I don't practice malfunction drills, because instead of wasting time trying to fix the stupid thing, I'm going to throw it at the guy and pull a knife.
 
I hope thats not your real plan!!!!!
Click to expand...
Not really, I'd probably use it as a club before I got the knife out:D

But seriously, all the scenarios that I can think of would require too much time, fine motor skills, and/or deliberate thought to be worth fixing the gun in middle of a fight. I figure in the time it takes to figure out what's wrong with the thing and fix it, the attacker(s) will already be in knifing distance (if they weren't already) or will have whipped out their gun and shot you. If one weapon fails, switch to another one.
 
Last edited:
My point is: If training time is limited, spend your time on shooting. First master all aspects of shooting, from draw and presentation in all manner of positions, to off hand shooting, to point shooting at close range, to distance shooting, to moving targets...If you have mastered all these elements (and I, for one, am not even close to "mastering" them), THEN train for unlikely events like malfunction drills.

of course we all know how to clear a malfunction, but training to do it rapidly seems a misplaced priority. Rapid draw, Yep... Rapid mag changes, Yep... Rapid stovepipe clearing... Hmmm... think I'll skip that.

As Derbel McDillet pointed out, not all malfunctions can be fixed with "tap rack bang." faulty primer, yes. failure to go into battery, yes. Some others, No. my last malfunction required dropping the mag and prying an empty casing wedged cockeyed in the ejection port. It was not a gun-fight-solvable problem.

If we want to train for the less likely events, there are some rare scenarios which are much more probable than a malfunction. Examples: Wrestling over a half-drawn pistol (this one scares me). Drawing from a 4:00 position IWB holster while seat belted in the drivers seat of car. Drawing after being knocked to the ground face down. Fending off a crazy woman whose in your face striking and clawing you, while her boyfriend 8 feet behind her is drawing a weapon. Lots of things come to mind which I would practice long before I spent time on tap rack bang.

Jim
 
The "deadman's click" - yeah, you better know how to fix that.

Here in the US, ammo manufactures produce 10-12 billion rounds a year. Then there's the imported ammo. That leaves a lot of potentially faulty rounds, even if the percentage is very small.

If you win the bad-luck lottery in the middle of a gunfight, it might be in your best interest to know how to get our equipment back up and running. Quickly.
 
Hello Everyone.... Happy Thanksgiving.

Thanks to Oldmarksman, Zombietactics and others for pointing out that the title of the thread is a bit misleading.

Ezmiraldo, I do appreciate you making it clear that you only got this impression from an "off the cuff" comment... your presentation of my thoughts were definitely a bit out of context.

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of easy answers/explanations in the defensive training world unless they are cop outs... such as "that's how it's always been done". I do believe that doctrines that make malfunction clearing part of the Day 1 Basic approach to defensive firearms training are out of date. By "making it a part of" I mean purposely inducing malfunctions for students to clear. Obviously, any class is going to have students encountering malfunctions and we teach them how to clear them as they occur (if they don't already know). That being said, I think it is much more important to teach the lesson (and set the tone/expectation) that malfunctions shouldn't be occurring regularly in the defensive firearm that someone has chosen to stake their life on. IF they can afford to be a two day CFS class, they can afford a proper, modern defensive handgun (it is also sadly ironic that most of the chokers in class are MORE expensive than the Glocks, XDs and M&Ps that we recommend).

So, no, we don't INDUCE malfunctions until our advanced class (days 3 and 4 of pistol work) and YES we do tell people that there is such a thing as worrying too much about malfunction practice. Sometimes, the latter is caused by the "any gun will do" attitude that forsakes making a smart decision in regard to what you put in your holster. Instructors/programs that tolerate that attitude and placate the students poor choice by celebrating their ability to clear malfunctions when they occur are actually doing those students a great disservice. It is easier to ignore the student's poor choice and make them feel good about learning the skills to deal with the fallout.

Hope that clears things up. I never have a problem with a disagreement in regard to what we do or don't each or preach in the CFS program, as long as we are actually talking about the topic accurately :)

-Rob
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top