Who here agrees with Rob Pincus idea that practicing malfunction drills is not needed

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ezmiraldo

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Who here agrees with Rob Pincus take on practicing malfunction clearings?

In couple of videos I've seen of him, he suggests that today's guns are so reliable that skills required to clear malfunctions are "advanced skills" and do not need to be emphasized or practiced regularly. He goes on to say that if one's gun malfunctions, one should simply change the gun.

Am I the only person who thinks this is wrong? I practice malfunction drills religiously, even though my sig p226 is working like a swiss watch (knock on wood). It is a mechanical device, and malfunctions are possible, especially when you are pumped full of adrenaline and operating the firearm somewhat differently than normal. Or when we fall and dirt gets inside the action... etc. etc.

Thoughts? :confused:
 
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pincus is one of those individuals whom if one could purchase for what he is worth and sell him for what he thinks he is worth, a sizable profit would be made.
 
Shoot your brass until it starts to fail, and you'll get fairly regular malfunction practice, whether you want it or not. :)

Best part is, you never know when its going to happen.
 
In a high stress situation, I'm more concerned about shooter error than equipment malfunction.

In IDPA, I suspect I've caused more problems than the equipment. Things like limp wristing, failure to fully seat a magazine, thumb riding slide, dropping the slide release too soon - all can cause malfunctions and this isn't even close to a complete list. It may come as a surprise, but sometimes there's no bang when the hammer falls and the primer is struck. Even happens with factory ammo; in fact, I've had more failures with factory than I've had with my reloads.

When you hear that really loud "click" instead of BANG, when the slide fails to close, fails to extract, locks open with a stove pipe or the dreaded double feed, then it's good to have practiced clearing malfunctions.

There are times I will shoot a match with a pistol which has experienced malfunctions in the past, just so I can hone my clearing drills if needed.
 
I don't have the resources he does for high dollar guns and ammo. My guns are reliable, but $14 .380 ammo will fail more often. Just saying.

Defense ammo, I run 50 to approve. Range ammo, make it cheap so it fails and I learn to deal.
 
Bloopers and squibs are a sign that the handloader has not done their job properly, but I've learned something valuable from the three I've had so far. I'm still waiting for a case head separation (preferably only on extraction - I'm not keen on the whole gas-venting-in-my-face thing), just so I can practise with my broken shell extractor before I take my big game rifle out hunting.

I don't care how experienced Mr Pincus is or how good his equipment is - anyone who doesn't feel the need to have a firm grasp on how to recognise, classify and deal with a failure of the bullet/shot charge to exit the muzzle when the pin hits the primer is IMHO speaking through some orifice other than their mouth.

It's all very well to talk about tap-rack-bang or whatever, but that only applies when the danger to you is so great and so immediate that it overrules the risk of firing into an obstructed barrel.
 
It's all very well to talk about tap-rack-bang or whatever, but that only applies when the danger to you is so great and so immediate that it overrules the risk of firing into an obstructed barrel.
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In practice, you still do them, I just "say" bang at the end, and then check the gun, as I do with most malfunctions.

So far, I would have been OK, but I agree, why risk it.
 
Perhaps someone might be good enough to tell us what Rob said and in what context.

In the course I took with him, clearing malfunctions and reloading by replacing magazines were a big part of the drill(s).

And people had to clear malfunctions frequently during the two day course.

In one of his videos in which he showed the difference between "good shooting" and defense, his Glock provided an unscripted malfunction, and he cleared it instantly.

"Today's guns are so reliable"? He has the opportunity to see a lot of them often, and he recommends only a few.

I carry one of them.
 
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I got my older sister and her husband into shooting. They're new to this, and therefore have gotten themselves into more "malfunctions" than anybody here will want to admit, and with brand new, reliable firearms. I don't care what anyone says, clearing a misfire is day one stuff. The Navy thought so too when I went through boot camp in '03.

To see the reaction of a new shooter when they pull the trigger and it DOESN'T go bang can be interesting to say the least.

It's all about training.
 
Who here agrees with Rob Pincus idea that practicing malfunction drills is not needed
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With good ammo and such guns as Glocks or Sigs I'd maybe practice malfunction drills once a year.

They are very reliable and when dirty far more reliable than revolvers (and I am a revolver fan.)

But no matter what you pack, do practice shooting strait with the first few shots. That matters more than anything.

Deaf
 
"In couple of videos I've seen of him, he suggests that today's guns are so reliable that skills required to clear malfunctions are "advanced skills" and do not need to be emphasized or practiced regularly."
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I've trained with a number of CFS instructors (a couple of them are friends), and have discussed quite a few things with Rob himself in person and over FaceBook or email.

I train with a bunch of different instructors and companies. I don't agree with everything in CFS (and I've had some serious-but-friendly discussions regarding what I think is out of whack in their program) but it appears that this is a misrepresentation of what Rob and the CFS instructors actually teach. There is quite a bit of material in the CFS program devoted to efficiently clearing malfunctions, and even one-handed techniques for malfunction clearances.

That's just a simple fact as anyone genuinely familiar with the program can attest.

Here's a few links in that regard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Kcg1k-UKo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi4PlDXzzxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuWtAAJG8X4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHhCUI7CzFc

It seems far more likely that you've mistaken what you've seen/heard, or don't understand it in the correct context. I guess a lot hinges on exactly what any one person considers "emphasized or practiced regularly".

Then again, I could be wrong ... please post up links to the videos you mention so we can all come to our own conclusions.
 
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I practice malfunction drills religiously
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Religiously????? Sorry to hear you have that many problems with your firearms. The only time I get to PRACTICE that maneuver is during an IDPA stage where I might actually have a malfunction. (not at all often) Drop the mag, rack the slide, feed a new mag in and back to action.

Any other time (at the range), I want to know WHY there was a malfunction and take the time to clear the gun and find out why, not what I would call a malfunction DRILL.

Clearing a gun with a perfectly good round in the chamber is not the same as when a malfunction actually happens. Should you know how to do it, YES. Should you have to practice it, NO.

Being prepared is one thing, being religious about it is just over kill. You would be better prepared if you spent the time to avoid malfunctions and checked your extractor, checked your ammo and checked your mags. Too many people holster their CCW and walk out the door without insuring it is working properly to start with.

Jim
 
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Automobiles and airplanes are quite reliable these days, but I'd insist that every driver knew how to react when a tire blows on the highway or an engine goes out mid-air. You may not need to include it as a regular, weekly part of training, but you should know what to do in the rare event of an emergency.
 
Let's see, the police I grew up with taught and practiced malfunction drills (including drawing their back ups for those who carried revolvers), the military taught me malfunction drills on various weapons platforms, the police academy taught me malfunction drills, the feds taught and insisted on malfunction drills and I have used those while bullets were flying. You can do what you want, but we practice them because you will do what you have trained to do when shtf.

The only semi auto pistol I have owned that has a decent round count (over 2000) that hasn't had a malfunction is my hi-point.....go figure.

I reload as well and I will purposely put together rounds with primers and powder, don't take the flare out, etc to use for training of family and friends. Tap rack bang should be drilled in enough to make it automatic. Can't tell you number of "professionals " I have seen who fumble malfunctions.
 
I kind of agree. I imagine most of us here shoot enough that were practicing "advanced" skills on a regular basis.
However, I don't think that training for "tap rack assess" or the like is a requirement for basic proficiency.
Even using cheap tula and the like I get maybe 1-2 unintentional malfunctions a year - out of, say, 3-4000 rounds.
The odds of having a malfunction with defensive ammo at the same time you're defending yourself is probably lower than being struck by lightning. If you're off in the sandbox, or otherwise engaged in active combat it might be a different story, but for general defense it's definitely a secondary skill.
That's not to say it's not worth training for - if you're doing a lot of training - but for newer shooters it's probably unnecessary. There are other, more useful skills to focus on at the beginning.

That being said, I do find them a valuable part of my own training. If nothing else, they serve to break up the monotony.
The best way I've found to create malfunctions is to load an empty shell into the mag. Sometimes it jams the whole gun up, sometimes it stovepipes, sometime it just fails to fire - you never know what's going to go wrong.
 
Rob Pincus says that if one's gun malfunctions, one should simply change the gun.

I personally agree with that. I wont carry a gun that I cant depend on to go "bang" when I pull the trigger.

I wont carry a gun that, back in my mind, I have to wonder if I have to do an immediate action.

I want to be able to act without thinking, to do that requires hours upon hours of practice and that practice with a gun that works.

One could learn a lot from Pincus' videos. You may not agree with everything he says, but, for the most part he is right on.
 
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