Who are you?

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Tourist,

Once again you have zero idea what you are talking about in regards to mindset. You have been proven wrong again and again (even by the definition that you finally looked up and posted.)

Your lack of knowledge, understanding, and ability to comprehend the most basic of words (even after looking in the dictionary) has done nothing but ruin this thread.

I post on eight of nine different forums and you are the only one that has not been able to follow along. It is obvious to me that you have taken on the role of the "contrarian troll."

It does not matter how many times you are proven wrong. It does not matter how well I articulate what I am saying, you are going to take everything I write and twist it to fit your contrarian ways.

You are welcome to have a complete lack of mindset if you want. It can go right along with your complete lack of comprehension and abilty to use a dictionary.
 
Sweatnbullets ...

No one till this point has called anyone a name or degraded this thread by resorting to the T word. You started this post with an open ended "who am I" and when challenged to provide your perspective of who you are you declined, which is your right. Please have the decency to allow contrasting opinion to be expressed. They might not agree with your thinking or even the majorities views, but they are what adds to the variety of thought and reflection in an open forum. If you only want folks to agree with your views than perhaps this is the wrong place for you to post a topic for discussion and then lash out on their response.

The net really does a poor job of translating individual thoughts since each of us are molded by our unique experiences throughout life. I might also suggest that anyone that has sensitive feelings when their post are not responded too in a manner that they deem suitable should find another medium to express those thoughts.

Peace to all.
 
Sweatnbullets said:
You are welcome to have a complete lack of mindset if you want.
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That's not really the crux of my argument. I have my own opinions on things, and no one is a troll just because they disagree with you. And I don't form my opinions blindly. Consider this:

colors.jpg


This is a small section of my colors. I hope it shows properly, but every seam, every patch, even the strong factory stitching from the original jean jacket has been re-sewn.

While an inactive member now, I wore these colors for five years in a row. Even to college. The repairs might consist of pulling, falling, and the "volunteer services" I took part in at various taverns. And I wasn't even that tough. Ask most guys and they will relate that I was the jokester of the group.

My point is that there was a human body in those rags.

So when I ask people to consider the machismo stand they take, I also advise them about how life turns out. My nose was broken twice for what ended up as nothing but foolishness.

When you reach my age you reflect. This week, a fellow retired member of the club dropped by to have his hunting knife sharpened. While I worked, certainly, we reminisced. But we also laughed about the utter foolishness we did in our wild twenties.

I have nothing against defending my wife and friends. However, I am not a warrior and never will be. I have no interest in sharpening myself to "the warrior mindset."

But this is my opinion, and I should be able to express it here.
 
Sorry, Captain, not my intention. And I certainly wouldn't attack any member over a diverse opinion.

To be clear, my comments are directed at myself.

I simply wanted to point out that your average guy can be a firearms enthusiast and have no focused agenda. In my case, I view my standpoint as a man who "has cleaned up his act."

And Sweatnbullets, if I have offended you in the passion of a debate, please accept my apology. Again, I am referencing my personal standpoint.
 
To return to the original proposition...

I've been a federal lawman for about twenty five years now. I did four years in the Marine Corps prior to that. I've been armed with fully automatic rifles, double action revolvers, 1911 variant pistols, double action-single action pistols, DAO pistols and lately a Glock 17. Additionally, I have a pretty good collection of other pistols and revolvers. I shoot 2700 Bullseye and PPC for fun.

I am armed almost without conscious thought. I get dressed in the morning and a gun goes on somewhere. Additionally, looking over the geography of a place - either outdoor or indoor - and 'reading' the people around me are just part of what I do.

I am paid to enforce the law. I do that. Sometimes that means physically controlling a suspect. I am no longer a brash young man, full of spit and vinegar ready to wrestle all and sundry. I don't think I really ever was.

I am not paid to fight; certainly not paid to fight 'fair'. I have a pistol, a can of pepper spray, one of those telescoping whack stick thingies and the ability to talk the legs off an eight legged mule and then convince it to go for a walk.

I do okay.
 
Frankly I have no idea where all of this "machisimo" misconception even originated from. There is nothing in any of my post that even hints to being some sort of trouble making macho guy looking for trouble. Just because one member said "warrior mindset" this thread spiraled into "oh, so you think you are bad ass and you like to look for trouble." There is nothing in any of my posts that substantiates this bizzare and ridiculous leap. And yes, I believe that this bizzare and ridiculous leap has been intentionally twisted and completely unwarrented all because someone did not like a certain word that was brought up by another member.

Everything that I do and teach is completely opposite of what Tourist has tried to nail on to me. I am all about avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. A strick adherence to "the three stupid rule" is the way that I live my life and what I teach my students. "Do not go stupid places, with stupid people, and do stupid things." If you live by the three stupid rule the chances of needing to defend yourself drops dramatically. Awareness reduces your risks even more.

But the facts are, even if you do everything right, it is the crimminal that picks the time and the place for the confrontation. If you have no choice but to fight then you better have your mind straight or you are going to lose. One of the biggest parts of having your mind straight is by knowing exactly who you are. Until you know who you are, you will have no idea how you are going to respond. Hesitating when your life is on the line can cost you dearly. Getting into the fight and not finishing it can really blow up in your face.

The bottom line is if you have to fight for your life you better have the mindset that you will do whatever it takes to win/survive and go home.....whatever it takes. Without that mindset you will most likely lose.

This is not stuff that I made up......this stuff as been taught by the very best self defense instructors in the world. This is all universally accepted stuff.

Here is just one example.


Jeff Cooper (colonel)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Combat Mindset - The Cooper Color Code

The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation is, according to Cooper, neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in Principles of Personal Defense.[2]

In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:

White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Yellow - Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself." You are simply aware that the world is an unfriendly place and that you are prepared to do something, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to SHOOT today." You don't have to be armed in this state but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six". In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep.

Orange - Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has gotten your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot HIM today." In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that goblin does "x", I will need to stop him." Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.

Red - Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger has been "tripped" (established back in Condition Orange). You take appropriate action.
The U.S.M.C. also uses "Condition Black" as actively engaged in combat, as do some of his successors, but Cooper always felt this is an unnecessary step and not in keeping with the mindset definitions.

Also note that the Color Code was never meant to be a warning system. Rather, the Color Code was designed to be a mental crutch. It was designed to allow someone to "get over" the resistance that a normal person has in pointing a pistol at the center of someone's chest and pulling the trigger.

In short, the Color Code helps you "think" in a fight. As the level of danger increases, your resistance to shoot decreases. If you ever do go to Condition Red, the decision to use lethal force has already been made (your "mental trigger" has been tripped).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_(colonel)
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There is nothing here about looking for a fight....it is all about avoiding one, just like what I teach. But it also talks about getting into the fight as quickly as possible when it can not be avoided.

Once again, I have no idea where I have said anything that is not in line with what most self defense instructor are saying.

Avoidance
Deterence
De-escalation

If that does not work WIN!
 
There is nothing here about looking for a fight....it is all about avoiding one, just like what I teach. But it also talks about getting into the fight as quickly as possible when it can not be avoided. (emphasis mine)
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NOW we're back on track! :cool:

...the ability to talk the legs off an eight legged mule and then convince it to go for a walk.
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And THAT is by far the most valuable tool in the toolbox, LEO or not.

We had an officer (recently retired after 25 years) that could do that. He had one of the highest arrest records in the history of the Dept., and surprisingly, the fewest uses of force.

I wish more defensive tactics schools taught verbal judo; deployment of a firearm wouldn't be necessary near as much if it were.
 
The concept that I think is at the crux of this topic is the word "martial." Just as a police officer is not a soldier, neither is the average citizen.

Yes, I use the condition yellow principles, I feel that is prudent. But in most cases that does not mean I intend to engage the danger. In point of fact, it does not define the conditions of danger at all.

Here's the definition:

martial>adjective of or appropriate to war; warlike

I am not a soldier engaged in an offensive operation against a recognized enemy. If I had to punch a mugger in the nose, I certainly wouldn't tell the responding LEO it was simply a "martial operation."

Now, if you wanted to say, "Chico is attentive when walking in public, careful to preserve the safety of his wife, and capable in responding to and reporting a crime," I would say that's a reasonable statement.

To infer that I apply martial ideas in my daily routine in peaceful society is simply incorrect.

The directives of soldiers, law enforcement and citizens are incredibly different. Consider a condition in society where the government calls for "martial law." Everyone understands that this condition is no longer the actions of the average cop on a beat.

And frankly, I admit that calling my actions "martial" is a bit insulting.
 
The directives of soldiers, law enforcement and citizens are incredibly different.
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Tourist, I agree

I see your point and understand that you "reference your personal standpoint."

My articles are geared towards a very diverse group of people. What I write has to look at a bigger picture than an individual, a civilian, a cop, a soldier, or an instructor. As I do this it definitely becomes less "personal."

Since "all encompassing" would be way to long winded, I try to find some middle ground that everyone can relate to.

Knowing who you are mindset wise is something that everyone can benefit from. The "directives" may be very different, but surviving a life threatening attack is pretty universal no matter who you are.
 
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Great reading

I have to say that this being my first day on this forum I am impressed with all that is is being written. I had to read the whole thread. Just great trading of ideas and philosophy. Some how the personal attacks got a little out of hand but in the end I see that we can all just get along. I want to say that both sides of this "idea" are on the right track. I think if I had to make a stand on one side or the other I would fall to the "Warrior " side. I am sorry to the individual who will gag at the mention of this word. But there are warriors among us,hard as it maybe to accept. They are fighting right this minute in Iraq and other countries that I cannot pronounce. You wont hear them brag about their exploits and they most assuredly don't want to be where they are, but warriors they are none the less. They are the men and women of this countries military. They are no less warriors than any other fighting force that has ever taken the field against another.
I understand the whole "I think I am a tough guy" mentality I have lived in that mode. But it was training that brought me to that level and as a necessary part of the ability to go into a battle with the "warrior mindset" and prevail. I love this country and would gladly go to Iraq or any other country that poses a threat to the Freedom of others. I hold myself as a person who will act first to protect others, even those who may have philosophy differing from my own as to war and it's virtues. I will, if I can, always come home and listen with interest to those views that say war is not necessary. Because I believe they have good intentions and through them the idea that a world without war is possible. And I hope that someday they will be right.Just please know and respect that it is the "Warriors among us" who will pay the price for your argument and your ability to make it.
 
Traveler01 said:
there are warriors among us...They are fighting right this minute in Iraq
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And this is the very point that Sweatnbullets and I are trying to make.

In any debate, you must first define terms and state postulates. And from my side of the line, this is where the most error happens.

(BTW, Sweatnbullets and I have exchanged e-mails. We disagree on some points, we agree on others. However, we are simply debating. We are not fighting. In fact, I look forward to his views on other issues.)

But I find the dividing line in this case on the words "warrior mindset" and "vigilant." Let me explain that. To best depict my point of view, let's look at groups like mall ninjas, citizens taking MA classes, soldiers who are deployed and putzes like me. We all have a separate agenda, and we are bound by different points under law and rules of engagement.

Those are my definitions and postulates.

Each one is vigilant, even the mall ninja. We then have trained citizens, and to me, that's the gray area. They may be ready to throw a punch, but let's not forget that their actions are tied to defense, not offense. You step outside that definition and you are subject to arrest.

To dramatize this, even a soldier in a combat zone is under rules of engagement. We no longer tolerate individual soldiers who use the experience for their self-aggrandize, if we ever did. And yes, I have heard all of the urban legends about members of our military collecting ears and fingers. This is a disgusting smear of our military, and we should blunt it at every turn.

For the most part, there are guys like me. We have a smattering of training, we may even have a history of fighting. We believe in condition yellow, we are vigilant, and we express these beliefs to our wives and friends.

But here is the crux of my argument. I do not believe there is a singular citizen who has the skills and rights to engage in war tactics, period.

The best example I can think of is Jeremiah Johnson, not the movie, but the real historic figure. The true man, "Liver Eating Johnson, did in fact go to war as an individual and is thought to have killed over 1,100 members of a tribe who massacred his family. If you have any other facts, please post them.

I also believe the rest of this breed are nuts, and I will say so.

A little later today I'm going to the Harley shop to eat their free chili and hot dogs, as I do on most Saturdays. In so doing, I plan to see a truly dangerous individual. You should not pester him, even if you are MA trained. He does not suffer fools, and he has natural physical strength. As a younger man, he and his cronies threw a juke-box through a plate glass window in a fit of pique--and that was on a day he was relaxing.

He's angry, argumentative, surly and he will fume like flash-paper if you are stupid enough to hold your hands up in the insipid "karate kid" pose.

By the way, he's just a guy. A retired bike mechanic. No warrior. No soldier. In fact, no credentials at all.

My advice is you should use that intuitive 'vigilant' skill you have as a warrior, and give him a wide berth, that is, until I can get some free hot dogs down his gullet...
 
Just a guy

It seems to me that the person you describe with trepidation is at best a thug or bully or whatever adjective that you may choose. The type of individual who walks through this life imposing their will on those who are weaker . The very person many train in MA or Firearms to avoid. The type of individual who asserts their will ,in settings where the opponent is weaker and at disadvantage,and because they have hurt others,expect us to believe that they are "badass".
This type of individual is known as a criminal.
This type of individual loses all that bravado when faced with someone they perceive as just a shade tougher than they purport to be, they are quite tuned to this perception. It is survival.
This is of course my opinion based on years of experience with this type of individual.
I may give them space,but my respect,my friend, is only given to those that earn it.And the individual you describe will never receive it. On the contrary I look for this type of individual as when looking for deer or other game.
So while you enjoy that hot dog,remember that some walk through this world looking to return the favor of your associates social outlook.

With all due respect.
Ride safe , look both ways before you cross, and never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.
 
Traveler01 said:
It seems to me that the person you describe with trepidation is at best a thug or bully or whatever adjective that you may choose.
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In point of fact, he's not, but it clearly demonstrates the point of my debate.

It appears that people get very attached to their labels in society. When someone like me even infers, "No, you're not," they get mighty defensive.

One of the things you learn as you get older is the idea of living comfortably in your own skin. Let's put a dramatic point on that. I'm a retired suburbanite. Paint the situation as you want, that's a solid fact.

However, why have so many fought so hard for the title of "warrior"? If they are a war veteran, yes, they have that rite of title.

So a bunch more hedge the idea and say "warrior mindset." How on earth would they know what Audie Murphy thought?

I figure it this way. All of us would like some improvement in their lives. If their MA skills are a tad rusty, schedule some classes at a karate school. If they wish to be better combat shooters, there's nothing wrong with a Ruger .22 and a few bricks of ammo on the weekends. If they want to get into better shape, I'm certain there's gym in your area.

If you value the life of a soldier, I see nothing wrong with calling your area recruiter.

As for bullies, a true warrior or martialist could care less.

These titles we throw around are more armor for ego than they are medals of conduct. And by the way, they're not fooling anyone.
 
(BTW, Sweatnbullets and I have exchanged e-mails. We disagree on some points, we agree on others. However, we are simply debating. We are not fighting. In fact, I look forward to his views on other issues.)
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This is true. There has been a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings between us. Hopfully we can get past that and debate this on a more rational level.

I plan to see a truly dangerous individual. You should not pester him, even if you are MA trained. He does not suffer fools, and he has natural physical strength. As a younger man, he and his cronies threw a juke-box through a plate glass window in a fit of pique--and that was on a day he was relaxing.
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I agree with Traveler......this guy is a thug and a crimminal. The people that I train are not, they are law abiding citizens and they are training to be able to protect themselves from dangerous people like this. "He does not suffer fools" let's me know that you are talking about someone that has spent his whole life as a bully. Out of the hundreds and hundreds of people that I have trained with....none of them have been bullies who "do not suffer fools."

This is obviously and actually been the crux of Tourists and my problems. We have both spent time around the world of outlaw bikers. He on the inside and me on the outside. He accepts the life style and the obvious crimminal aspect of much of it. I do not accept the life style and crimminal aspect of it. Thugs demand respect.....I give respect where it is earned on a personal level. Being a thug and dangerous crimminal does not earn my respect.....it earns my contempt.

This is the very basis of the "three stupid rule." As a teenager I was in the position that I had to live at a stupid place, with stupid people, that did stupid things. Were these people bad ass? Absolutely! They were dangerous crimminals who's lives were dictated by that image. Their whole self forth was built off of bullying and fear. This is something that I will never bow down to. Did this cause me a good deal of problems? You bet it did! Did standing up to hardened crimminals as a mere boy to protect my sister get me into fights that were way over my head.....not only yes....but hell yes!

Did I find out who I was by putting my life on the line for the life of my sister? I think you all know the answer to that.

Both sides of the debate are covered here. We have the old biker that is tired of the violence of his past life. And we have a person that has stepped up to the plate to protect his family from the violence of his past life that was brought into his life by outlaw bikers.

Once again, I am not a badass! Physically.....I'm a joke!! I am just someone that will do whatever it takes to protect myself and my loved ones.....whatever it takes!

Did this mindset get me through some really tough ****?

It was the only thing that got me through the toughest of it.

Tourist is looking at this from the viewpoint of reformed badguy.....I am looking at through the same eyes as that kid that stepped up to the plate, way over his head, that went toe to toe with evil.

And yes, I got my ass kicked......but my sister escaped and lived.

So, "who am I?" I sure as hell know who I was on that night. No hesitation, no limitation of mindset, just limited size, physical ability, tactics, knowledge and skills. All of that can and has been improved.

I am just glad that I was born with the mindset because it was the one thing that save the day.

And that is why it is the most important thing!
 
Actually, guys, you're both wrong.

You're not a criminal or a bully if your throw a defensive punch. Besides, if you leave him alone and treat him with respect, why fear people like that at all? He never hit me.

Once again, the problem is perception. Real tough guys, like working cowboys, stevedores, and guys like my buddy don't have to do anything. They don't have to gloat, show off, list their credentials or anything.

If you're a warrior, you don't have to spout. And if you're not a warrior, spouting doesn't matter.

And pete's sake, if you're a paper tiger, let the biker finish his cheeseburger.

Edit: And by the way, 'Bullets, I was never really a "bad guy." I rode a bike, chased women and pretty much spent the value of your average home on chrome and 'go fast' engine parts.

And I never threw an offensive punch. Not once. Ever.
 
I rode with a club that flew green and white but were not a "riding group". I spent way more years as an independent "outrider" than a "clubber". I have never been the bully or thug! I was a hell raiser but would actually step up and shut down the bully biker buddy that was picking on the "enthusiast". I am a smallish guy and pretty much reserved in outward "presentation". One buddy did 7 years in Georgia penal system for armed robbery and boxed the whole time he was incarcerated, this feller was fast to tell a "bully" to STFU as Hogdogs will not back down and will walk you around by yer nuts faster than you can say UNCLE! The reason he knew this was he tried (beers were involved) to put his bully attitude and superior size and training into a "discussion" we were having. It ain't about warrior mindset to me. It is un wavering respect I have for myself and my upbringing and for my father that taught me that if you call a bully's bluff you got them buffaloed. If that don't work I resort to "plan B", "Plan C", and finally "PLAN D"... BTW I never allowed a bully to intimidate me since I was 13 years old and never since have I fallen to the "bully". Everyone has a weakness! Mine is my family but my wife is the bad ass enuff to insure they are never used as leverage against me!
Brent
 
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