Which bullet for defensive ammunition?

K

kilotanker22

New member
So, I am getting ready to buy a couple thousand hollow points to load for 9mm defensive ammunition. I know I don't need that many, but I practice often with my carry ammo, and with the current market, I cannot afford to buy defensive ammunition in the quantities I would like to shoot it. I can load it much cheaper.

The two bullets I am trying to decide between are the Hornady XTP and the Nosler sporting handgun bullet. My load spits out 115 grain XTP bullets a shade over 1200 fps in my 4.5" guns and 1170 from my Glock 43x. Both are comparably priced too.

Has anyone tested the Nosler sporting handgun bullet in gel, or gel with denim?
 
XTP is better I would say. ALso, the Nosler bullet loads at a very short OAL, because the round ogive is very fat, and it hits the barrel, so max OAL with it might be like 1.060 or something very low. The XTP's load to 1.100.

basically, you want 147 XTP's if you can get them, but any XTP is a top tier load.
 
XTP is a solid proven performer and the one I load in my 9mm. It doesn't have to be driven to super high velocity to work right.
 
9MMand223only said:
XTP is better I would say. ALso, the Nosler bullet loads at a very short OAL, because the round ogive is very fat, and it hits the barrel, so max OAL with it might be like 1.060 or something very low. The XTP's load to 1.100.

basically, you want 147 XTP's if you can get them, but any XTP is a top tier load.
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Why the 147 grain over the other weights? Is it due to the reduced powder charge and being subsonic? Will the XTP expand reliably at lower velocities in my shorter barrel guns? How about penetration? If I ever need to use a firearm inside.my home or in public, I would prefer if my bullets never even exist my target, to reduce the risk of collateral damage. Although, if the 147 expands readily at reduced velocities, it may not exit a human target either. I would still be concerned with over penetration with heavier 9mm projectiles.
 
Midway has the 115g xtp on sale for $19.99 per 100 https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010865576

Personally im partial to 124s as i can push them hard and still keep them subsonic and save my ears a little, heaven forbid i have to send rounds without ear protection, and they carry their energy well.

Have not heard or seen much on the normas. The xtp is a proven performer. Im partial to the gold dots myself.
 
I just saw that Midway has the 125 grain Sierra/SIG V-Crown bullet on sale as well. I have been told that the V-Crown bullet fills with denim or clothing and won't expand. Although, I cannot verify that claim.
 
For the price I decided to buy the 125 grain V crown bullets. I got 1000 count for $152. Considering the market I think that's a good price.
 
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Good deal! I picked up 1100 gold dots for 22.40 per 100 a few months back. I ordered and extra 100 to get the load worked up as I had not worked with the 124g gold dots before and wanted 1000 loaded when I was done.
 
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Frankly I don't think it makes any difference though the 124 is the best bang for the buck velocity wise and penetration.

Once you have the SD bullet, the rest is in the shot location and ability to hit in the POA under stress.

My brother knew a guy who went up against a 44 magnum with a 45 x 1911.

I forget how many hits the good guy with the 1911 took (4?) but he hit the other buy 5 or 6 times and in better places, killed him. The good guy had to spend time in the hospital but survived fine.

That was back in the day when RN was all you had for a 1911 that would feed right.

No idea what the 44 mag guy had.

9mm is on level with 44 or 45 these days with shot placement being the key for any of it.

If you can't shoot under stress, then it makes no difference.

9mm has the quantity as well. Gives you a chance to settle down.

Rapid fire is not the name of the game, cool, calm and methodical will win the encounter (hopefully never)

I have read 4 or 5 accounts of shouts and the deciding factor was the Police person settled down finally and started aiming and not lobbing shots in the general direction.

One of my all time favorites was the Street Cop who could barely quality on the range but got into 3 or 4 shootouts in his career (won all of them). KC I believe and pretty wild area he patrolled.

Same police department had a range training officer who was a whiz at shooting, went on patrol from time to time, got into a shootout and wound up in the hospital and the bad guy got away. Lots of rounds and could not hit diddly

There are some indicators as to how you handle stress and a crisis situation, but you never really know until you are there (hopefully you don't get to find out)

Closest I came to was a nasty dog in our back yard. He was after our cat and the handiest gun was my 22 S&W Model 41 (semi auto target pistol for those who do not know)

Said dog is coming right at me, I have him locked in and I told him, you really do not want to do that while I was squeezing the trigger.

He did a 90 deg turn and went out the open gate. What amazed me was the Model 41 has a target trigger, I don't know how you can start to squeeze that sensitive trigger and not have it go off.

I was impressed with myself. Could I do that if someone was pointing a gun at me? Shrug, don't know and hope I never find out.

I keep Factory Golden Sabre int he 9mm (most accurate and factory is more reliable) and the hand loads (now store pickup) are for practice. 9 mm is just to picky for me to reload and I can get low cost ammo at the store often enough to be fine.
 
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kilotanker22 said:
For the price I decided to buy the 125 grain V crown bullets. I got 1000 count for $152. Considering the market I think that's a good price.
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I think you are way overthinking this. There is nobody "alive" that can answer your questions. Over penetration is a concern? I got an answer. Use birdshot shotgun, 12G. That issue solved.

Does it expand? Who alive can answer? and who cares if it expands?

Does the bad guy stand still, with a t-shirt on, so you can shoot him the perfect spot, so it doesn't hit bone, and then the gel tests you been watching are comparable with perfect expansion?

Its all nonsense. If you shoot somebody with anything, in the right spot, they DRT. So my advice is pick whatever your comfortable shooting, and shoot as much and fast as possible until it stops moving.

If you use the best gel tested ammo in the history of the universe, and you hit part of his arm, its going right through, then its going through the wall of your house, and into the next house. Every single 9MM round will do this. HP, FMJ, all of it.

I suggest you go watch this channel.
https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulHarrell

He proves over and over again, that HP "premium" ammo is not that much better than cheap commercial junk. And when I say over and over, I mean probably 100+ times, as he shoots targets that far far far far more resemble what shooting a person is like, not some IDIOTIC gel block.
 
9MMand223only said:
I think you are way overthinking this. There is nobody "alive" that can answer your questions. Over penetration is a concern? I got an answer. Use birdshot shotgun, 12G. That issue solved.

Does it expand? Who alive can answer? and who cares if it expands?

Does the bad guy stand still, with a t-shirt on, so you can shoot him the perfect spot, so it doesn't hit bone, and then the gel tests you been watching are comparable with perfect expansion?

Its all nonsense. If you shoot somebody with anything, in the right spot, they DRT. So my advice is pick whatever your comfortable shooting, and shoot as much and fast as possible until it stops moving.

If you use the best gel tested ammo in the history of the universe, and you hit part of his arm, its going right through, then its going through the wall of your house, and into the next house. Every single 9MM round will do this. HP, FMJ, all of it.

I suggest you go watch this channel.
https://www.youtube.com/c/PaulHarrell

He proves over and over again, that HP "premium" ammo is not that much better than cheap commercial junk. And when I say over and over, I mean probably 100+ times, as he shoots targets that far far far far more resemble what shooting a person is like, not some IDIOTIC gel block.
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Sure gel is not a perfect medium, but what is? What gel is good at is determining how the bullet will react hydraulic pressure when it hits a target. Adding layers of denim or fabric simulates clothing. Some people add bone to their gel casting. I think it is safe to assume that any modern cartridges with reasonable velocity and energy will penetrate and break bones. All the better too. If the bullet blows through someone's sternum, not only will the bullet cause damage, but the fragments of bone will become a problem for the bad guy too. Where hollow point bullets shine is the ability to quickly expand in a liquid medium. Our bodies are 70% water. Bone or no bone, hollow point bullets will almost always out perform fmj bullets in two ways. They will penetrate less when all else is equal, and they will transfer energy more efficiently as they meet increased resistance due to the larger frontal area plowing through.

If I were to hit someone in the arm, with a fmj bullet, it will still cause damage sure, but I bet that a good quality hollow point will cause a lot more damage, and still penetrate less than the fmj.

You said yourself in reference to Mr. Harrell that premium bullets are not much better than cheap ammo. Which implies that you agree they are better. Anyone who is serious about carrying a firearm for defense understands that fmj and non-expanding bullets are lethal. That is one of the main reasons we use expanding bullets, because they slow down faster and penetrate less than non-expanding bullets. Thereby reducing the risks associated with firing your gun within close proximity to other people and property. The other main reason to choose an expanding bullet is the increased frontal area of an expanding bullet. This causes more damage to the target and aides in putting living critters, including people, down more quickly. You would never recommend a non expanding bullet for taking anything besides large dangerous game when on the hunt. The same principle applies to defensive ammunition.

As for being proficient with your tools, that is why we train. Training does not guarantee you will always hit your mark. What it does do is reduce the likelihood of major mistakes through improving shooter familiarity with their arms and practices. The only thing idiotic about this discussion is your hostility. Chill bro, we are all friends here right?


RC20,

I have been in enough firefights to know the risks involved, in both personal accountability and readiness. I have seen experienced, combat hardened soldiers freeze in the heat of battle. Like every individual, none of us are infallible. But no one could ever convince me that training and experience count for nothing. That being said, even professional soldiers spend most of their time trying to avoid confrontation, unless necessary. I always tried to rationalize my fear when going outside the wire in a hostile environment. First, mortal fear is real. Accepting that it is ok to be afraid and that being afraid is a natural response that you are not likely to avoid is important. Second, committing to your actions fully accepting that you may not survive is also important. Recognizing your fear for what it is and committing to your cause is not easy though. I rationalized it like this. If I am to die today, I will at least die honorably. Many times in combat the only way out is through. Sure you may die, embrace your sacrifice and continue your mission.
 
kilotanker22 said:
So, I am getting ready to buy a couple thousand hollow points to load for 9mm defensive ammunition. I know I don't need that many, but I practice often with my carry ammo, and with the current market, I cannot afford to buy defensive ammunition in the quantities I would like to shoot it. I can load it much cheaper.

The two bullets I am trying to decide between are the Hornady XTP and the Nosler sporting handgun bullet. My load spits out 115 grain XTP bullets a shade over 1200 fps in my 4.5" guns and 1170 from my Glock 43x. Both are comparably priced too.

Has anyone tested the Nosler sporting handgun bullet in gel, or gel with denim?
Click to expand...
XTP definitely. From my testing, the Nosler bullet may or may no, most likely WILL not) expand. I would consider that Nosler Bullet nothing more than a target bullet.
 
Ya know Cutting Edge makes 9mm bullets...
And in our home state of PA.
Ditto Sinterfire.
Right outside of St. Marys, PA.

Both are devastating self defense bullets.

I shoot & carry Sierra 124gr JHP & they make the bullets for Sig.
All are plenty accurate out of my Walther PPS & H&K VP9.
 
std7mag said:
Ya know Cutting Edge makes 9mm bullets...
And in our home state of PA.
Ditto Sinterfire.
Right outside of St. Marys, PA.

Both are devastating self defense bullets.

I shoot & carry Sierra 124gr JHP & they make the bullets for Sig.
All are plenty accurate out of my Walther PPS & H&K VP9.
Click to expand...
The cutting Edge 9mm hollow points are $1.29 per projectile. That is roughly nine times what I paid for the Sierra V-Crown bullets per projectile. I have considered Sinterfire. I even have some already, but lately have not been available in .355".
 
Am currently using 124 gn xtp's for vermin loading in 9mm carry pistols. If i lived in a warmer clime, would certainly consider the gold dot or newer sierra v-crowns for the expansion. In days gone by, have loaded the Nosler 124 jhp's , but they sucked up to much case volume for the powder being used.
 
I'll tell ya though.
If i could find 124, 125 trunjucated nose jacketed bullets, i'd get em and carry in a heartbeat!

They do a lot of damage!
Germans were using them in the Luger pistols. Allies falsely accused them of using hollow points.
And they penetrate better than hollow points.
 
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