Where are we headed?

As John Ross said in his book: (I typed this out because it makes so much sense. Its on page 290 of Unintended Consequences. If you don't have a copy buy one!)

"Those are questions that each woman has to answer for herself. There is one situation, though, where I tell
the women to fight to the death. That's when the man pulls out a pair of handcuffs and says, 'Come on, I
promise I won't hurt you, this is just so you won't flail around and hurt either of us by accident. Come on, I
just want to talk, get in the van and let me handcuff you to this eyebolt here, and I promise I won't touch
you. I'm not asking you to put on a gag or anything, and since you can still scream for help, you know
you'll be safe. Come on, I got a full bar in here, and color TV, and air conditioning, great stereo, come on,
just put on the cuffs.'
"I tell women that if that ever happens, maybe the man is telling the truth, and maybe after talking to her
for a while he'll let her go and she will have had a good time drinking champagne and listening to music.
But if she gets in the van and puts her wrists in the handcuffs, she has just given up her future ability to
fight, and now it is too late." Henry realized he had been making eye contact with all the other people in the
lecture hall, just as he did when he taught a course. Now he looked directly at the professor.
"How do you spot the precise point where a society is standing at the back of the van and the State has the
handcuffs out? That's the question I'd like to see addressed by one of these philosophers we've been
studying, Professor."



As is pointed out when do you not have the option to do anything to save yourself? When you reach that point it is to late, you must act BEFORE that happens.

I see every gun ban, assault weapon ban, as another notch on the handcuffs. Every click (ban) we are more surely stuck in that van, right now I feel that my hands are still free enough to get out. But a few more bans and I am stuck for sure, left to the mercy of the person who is my captor.
 
Precisely. I'm not all that old and I can remember things like paying 12.75% for my first mortgage, gas lines, THE entire COLD WAR, THE entire VIETNAM WAR, mortgage rates pushing 20%. Heck, I remember the introduction of the Apple II.
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What on earth did any of those events have to do with Federal encroachment of Civil Liberties? They demonstrate only that you've been cognizant of certain disconnected issues since the 70's...ever read Jack London's short story, "To Build a Fire"? ;)
Rich
 
It's interesting that the US is reaching that point in its history where all other civilizations crumpled, either internally or externally. Who knows if or why this can or will happen to the US, but it COULD happen in any number of ways such as nukes, biological, chemical, mass hysteria and riots on a nationwide level, natural or manmade disease, shortages of resources like oil and clean water, a REAL war with a nation like China (starting over resources or politics or whatever), or we could just become a police state and have an internal revolationary war over the deprivation of rights....

It's sad to think that what we all know and love about the US could one day be a failed experiment in freedom. It's impossible to predict. But I don't see where we are at to be so bad, historically speaking. Sure, there are really aweful things, but there are great things too.



Rich stated:

- I am no longer able to travel by air without showing ID
- I can no longer purchase a firearm without a background check
- I can no longer refuse my name to a Police Officer
- I must ask the government's permission to tuck a pistol under my coat
- I can be imprisoned and held indefinitely, without attorney or charges
- I can be spied on and my phone tapped on the flimsiest of excuses, without ever being notified that such had occurred.
- I can be stopped at random "Papers Please" roadblocks and arrested for failure to wear a safety belt
- I can no longer purchase an airline ticket with cash, without that being reported and, perhaps, investigated
- I can no longer withdraw $10,000 of MY money from MY bank account without that being reported and, perhaps, investigated
- My children can be seized, tazed and prosecuted for no greater "crime" than having a jack knife in their pocket
- My property can be seized for no other reason than somebody committing a drug crime while visiting
- My property can be seized for no other reason than a Highway Officer deciding I had too much property with me
- My property can be condemned and stolen for no other reason than someone with deeper pockets than me making larger political contributions than me
- I can be arrested, on felony charges for a simple lie, that had no consequence to any act or other person
- My home can be invaded in dark of night by armed, masked gunmen screaming obscenities and any attempt to defend my loved ones will be met by justifiable use of force; resulting in the loss of my most valuable freedom- my life.
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Rich, you're post suggests that these are a bad thing.... Let's take air travel for instance. You're complaining that it's a hassel and even a "violation of your rights" to be asked for ID. In light of 9/11 how else would you recommend people board such missles capable of bringing a nation to its knees and plumeting us into war? As far as being spied on and imprisoned, how realistic is that scenario for Americans? And, that's not a new concept anyway... remember the Japanese concentration camps in California during WWII?? I would say that the US reaction is rather tame now comparitively speaking. And how effective would law enforcement be if they could not identify and arrest people? Seriously? I'm familiar with no cases where property is seized and lawfully held for no reason, and I'm also familiar with no case where citizens were detained for greater than 72 hours without a hearing (over weekends when the magistrate is unavailable generally). I don't understand the home invasion point... in most states the right to self and home defense is recognized. And if your state doesn't recognize it, you can move to one that does. And while I agree the right to keep and bear arms is far from recognized as it ought to be, there was no guarantee that there wouldn't be a list -- even the militia had their names on lists. Granted, you make some other good points... but consider life in prior times:

As far as politics and law are concerned, I'd say we live in much more "fair" times today than in the past and have made significant progress. For instance:

Women couldn't vote 50 years ago. Blacks weren't considered people 50 years ago and were commonly hung or beaten and killed for no justifiable reason. Just 40 years ago an American man could be drafted to fight in the infantry of the US armed forces. During prohibition it was illegal to possess or drink alcohol. Rape and child abuse were not considered serious crimes in many states just decades ago. The Feds routinely spied on suspected "Communists" in this decade.

The problem is that we have been too liberal with our freedoms and as a result have been taken advantage of our lax attitudes about crime, terrorism and such. I'm not saying that we need less freedoms, but freedoms aren't violated by showing identification to board a plane, for instance. Nobody would fly in planes if ID weren't checked today. It just makes sense.

And of course technology has made our lives better and worse in many ways, but it's certainly here to stay.
 
The reason: Most Free Men really don't want to be Free in the first place; it frightens them to think they are on their own.
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This is where I get worried. What happens if that way of thinking becomes so accepted that those who understand freedom and responsibility end up a small minority? I'm in my early 20s and I often wonder what it'll be like when I'm telling kids that I used to walk to school uphill both ways in three feet of snow with one shoe and fourty seven pounds of books on my back.

I think it's possible for things to get better, however. Still trying to figure out how to best make that happen.
 
I think this thread should be pinned, if nothing else, just so we ALL know exactly what the situation is, and have examples to show when our members are accused of being paranoid. And, if nothing else, just so I can return and read all the brilliant posts.:D

Good job brothers...:D
 
Goslash27, you ever been to our state capital? Above the law library is a inscription that reads, "Where Law Ends, Tyranny Begins". Ironic that the laws that are being made lead to tyranny.
 
Yep. There's no more good guys. I prefer the motto myself.

Take a good look around at what's going on right now. We're becoming more and more like the Soviet Union of the '80s everyday. And it wasn't those commie liberals after all. The party of "personal freedom and personal responsibility" has told us that the world is too dangerous for freedom and too many of us got played for fools. And once the pendulum swings left in response to this (and it's gonna) it's only going to get worse.

A good many of us are Republican because they believed in less government authority and oversight. But not any more.
The Democrats are like an overbearing mother figure, demanding that we eat all our broccoli and be nice to our sister. The Republicans have become like an overbearing father subjecting us to periodic room inspections and demanding that our behavior conforms to their standards "for your own good because I said so".
What we need is a guard dog. Something that protects us while remembering who's in charge.
So how do we get there from here? Bearing in mind that we are already outnumbered by the freedom-haters I'm not sure. All I can do is recognize the fact that the government does not have my best interest in heart and neither party is my friend. Pit them against each other so they can't focus on me. Find and promote politicians who believe in civil liberty. Continue to reach out to the freedom-haters and try to bring them around. Hopefully once the freedom-haters see what their folly has created they will be ready to fix it. If we're not all enslaved first.

And if worst comes to worst, I can always move to Switzerland :)
 
Rich, no personal offense perceived, nor was any intended by me; thanks for the compliment. ;)

leadcounsel, I have a few points and questions, as follows:
- women could vote 50 years ago; suffrage was enshrined in the Constitution as the 19th amendment in 1919.
- treatment of blacks varied considerably from region to region in 1956 (50 years ago). However, I don't believe that in the eyes of the law at that time they were not regarded as people. The law as it was enforced at the time in different places certainly did not always take their rights into account, but there was no widespread legal understanding that they weren't technically human, or even not American citizens. Do you have a source for this?
- true, you could be drafted; you still can. What's the problem with that?
- could you elaborate a little more on your statement that rape and child abuse were not considered as serious crimes in many states decades ago?

Edited to correct a rather obvious mathematical error. :-)
 
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LC-
I don't know where to begin.
You're complaining that it's a hassel and even a "violation of your rights" to be asked for ID.
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No I'm not. I'm pointing out a sample of controls on my rights to freely move within my own country that didn't exist 50 years ago. This is but one. Your argument is that it makes us safer.....which, of course, is the only argument you can make; which, of course, is the only argument ever made for greater government control.

Now, I'm not arguing that I shouldn't have to show picture ID to get on a plane. But, tell me this: How has it made us "safer"? Name one would-be hijacker that was picked up because he showed his ID? I'll name you 18 who weren't prevented by the process.

remember the Japanese concentration camps in California during WWII??
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Yup. I've spoken to the Italians in the Northeast who were rounded up also. I've also read the accounts at Waco. What's your point? It appears to be, "If government transgresses at ANY time, it should be excused from transgressions for ALL time." Sorry, I'm not drinking that brand today.

I'm familiar with no cases where property is seized and lawfully held for no reason
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Oh, but there is always a "reason". http://perspicuity.net/MyEssays/PissedOff/tourist1.html Problem is, a "reason" was not enough 50 years ago. "Reasonable Cause" was the standard. That disappeared in the 80's....check your SCOTUS logs.

I'm also familiar with no case where citizens were detained for greater than 72 hours without a hearing
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Then you haven't heard of Jose Paddilla or the way the PATRIOT Act is used against US Citizens

Women couldn't vote 50 years ago. Blacks weren't considered people 50 years ago and were commonly hung or beaten and killed for no justifiable reason.
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Say, what? Your ignorance of fundamental US history simply overwhelms me.


I think we're done here.
Rich
 
GoSLASH27-
Excellent post. I hope the people on this thread are the guard dogs.

I am very impressed with the debate this thread has brought about. I think my generation, 30 and younger, tends to let current affairs and politics roll of thier backs. The youth are more concerned with being consumers and throwing away thier brains. Among my peer group I encounter hostility EVERY TIME I bring up politics or US policies. At first I thought I was treated with hostility because everyone disagreed with my views. As I have gotten older and more educated I realized that I encountered this hostility because those that I was choosing to speak to were ignorant and viewed me as a know it all. Even when the rare occasion came up that someone was educated enough to debate me or agree with me I rarely found them possessing the knowledge to continue a LONG conversation. I am not the smartest person on the planet, nor on this board, but I think I can directly blame the eroding of our freedoms to the fact that the majority of the voting pool are just plain STUPID. This is obviously not a new or elightening realization but I have to say that for my age group I believe most folks walking around watch too much TV, don't read enough, are morally content to be controlled zombies that just want to consume and consume and as long as they have thier cake they are willing to be persecuted and manipulated. Thus, our government fills the void. We are the puppets and they are the puppeteers. NO STRINGS!
 
I think I can directly blame the eroding of our freedoms to the fact that the majority of the voting pool are just plain STUPID. This is obviously not a new or elightening realization but I have to say that for my age group I believe most folks walking around watch too much TV, don't read enough, are morally content to be controlled zombies that just want to consume and consume and as long as they have thier cake they are willing to be persecuted and manipulated.
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I don't know if it is the majority, but it seems to be the majority of "citizens" in this nation fit Nash's description above. These are the people I refer to as "The American Sheeple."

They are taught from 1st grade through college not how to think, but what to think. "Being popular" is more important to them than doing the right thing. They vote for leftist/socialist scumbags like Clinton, Gore and Kerry because it is "popular" and "trendy" to do so. The twin gods they worship are money and popularity.

As to the original question of this thread - "Where Are We Headed?" the answer is obvious. Unless we who care about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights can turn the tide, we will end up like the subjugated and disarmed masses of England - ruled over by a "Mother" government, and on a very short chain.

This is not what The Founders intended for us.
 
Steelheart,
For once we find ourselves in complete agreement about the magnitude of the threat we face, but I must (once again) caution you against turning a blind eye to the threat from the other side of the aisle. As I have said from day 1, *Both* parties are out to get us.
 
GoSlash,

Agreed. There are politicians in both (R) and (D) parties that have trampled the Constitution and Bill of Rights underfoot, stabbing We The People in the back in the process. I know that and I will not forgive and forget.

That having been said, my personal "line in the sand" is the Second Amendment. ANY politician - regardless of party - who tries to gut the Second Amendment will never get my vote - his/her opponent who has the most likely chance of winning will get my vote.

John McCain and Rudy Giuliani may have the (R) tag after their names, but I will never vote for either - they are both antigun/antifreedom bigots.
 
ever read the plaque on the wall at the lincoln memorial?

we are still a better nation than any other but in the times since, people are willing to sacrific constitutonal guarantees for the feeling that it will make them safer when inevidably,it does the opposite.sacrificing constitutional guarantees that men and women shed blood for -for a few scraps of feel good legislation.:barf:
 
The more and more I watch the news and read these boards it begins to make me think. I keep thinking about a movie I saw a few months ago and it's been on my mind alot. I don't know if anyone here saw V for Vendetta, but my signature is a line from the movie and i remembered this quote while reading this thread and thought it was relevant. "Fear became the ultimate tool of this government." I hope a day never comes where the common people have to choose between freedom and tyranny, for those will be dark days indeed.
 
Ben had it right

I gotta rent Vindetta - missed it in the theatres. I think that line from the movie is a paraphrase of Benjamin Franklin's "When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

That's about as to the point as it gets.
 
I suspect if you were to examine those that are most alarmed by our loss of freedoms, and those that are concerned but optimistic that these problems can and will be addressed, you'd see a significant difference in age groups. I think younger folks tend to get more impassioned about "sky is falling" rhetoric than those that have been through a few crisis and realize that acknowledging a problem is the first step in addressing a it.

I fall in with the older crowd and yes I have some concerns. I don't think it's time to get my bug out bag together and I don't feel the need to start wearing tin-foil hats. I think it's time to get a little more politically active and put some effort into changing some things that may have gotten out of whack over the last few years.

For those that weren't alive during the Cuban Missile Crisis or the depths of Vietnam, or the gas crisis believe me when I tell you the concern among EVERYONE for these issues was far greater than anything existing today. And a big difference between those situations and the ones we have today is that we weren't just concerned about the possibility of our lives being affected (such as our phones being tapped or someone coming in with a warrantless invasion of our homes) our everyday lives were REALLY affected, by 2 hour lines at the gas pumps, fear of graduating from HS because we knew where we were going after that and the high probability we wouldn't be coming back, learning how to duck and dive under our school desks and building bomb shelters in our back yards....and we came through them okay. Those were REAL things that affected the way we had to live...not just things that COULD POSSIBLY happen to us.

Over time you learn to be patient, and the bigger the problem the more patient you have to be. Unfortunately the MTV generation has gotten used to immediate gratification and that forces a lot of overreaction to problems...with detrimental consequences of their own. We have some problems beginning to rear their heads, but by and large our everyday lives have not had to be significantly modified to deal with them. Hopefully we can do some things so that doesn't become the case.

The point here is to be aware, contribute what you can to the solution, ACT decisively but don't OVERREACT. Complaining about a problem doesn't fix it.
 
I agree somewhat but times are changing.the values we had during the 40s and 50s are not the ones today. the cuban crisis was real,we came very close and so started the whole cold war.its over and now we as a country face more challanges and other threats.

folks seeking and openly sponsoring gun bans back in the 40s would have certainly been laughed out due to the times and attitudes, doing so back in the earlier part of our history would have gottn tar'd and feather'd and became traitorous people,not so today.sneaking and snooping and all the things in the internet info age,who da thunk it.the constitution wheels turn slow but they do work when used properly as they were meant to be back when it was written.

some folks see nothing wrong with abolishing ammendments because as a civilized society,we no longer need them.some see the constitution as a hurdle, to pass whatever ridiculous bills,for their own gains,not that of everyone...some see it as a corner stone of freedom. point is things are changing because peoples attitudes on freedom are changing.What is done today will certainly affect tommorrow.absolutly guarantee it.


all that said, vote and express your own opinions to representatives based on your own choices rather than waiting around to see what happens next. maybe not much but my 2 cents anyhow.
 
2nd Amendment

We're just following the rise and fall of a nation. I forget the path now, from tyranny to freedom to... ? Whatever, we're heading for totalitarianism. What makes it worse today is the level of technology available, which allows the broad concept of globalism and the micro-concept of direct control over every aspect of individual lives to co-exist. It's possible we're near a true end of freedom, even the concept of such.

Time will tell, but I believe the coming years will be very uncomfortable for many of us.

I can not agree more. I like the way you think! I think it is so funny to watch our Govt strut like a peacock. When the end of their reign of power is almost at an end. If you look at how old the earth is, the existance of humans is but a fraction of that time. And the mighty USA has been around even less of a fraction than that. I am not saying that this country will fall apart tomorrow or even in my life time. Heck the Constitution allows for flexability and change. But, this country just as so many others before it, will fall. We have started this path many years ago and it would take something dramatic to change this course now.

It's okay. The human race will survive this country's politics and technology. The original poster made a comment of this country heading in a direction that may be "bad". I guess, I would submit that "bad" is subjective. If you mean "bad" is warfare, revolution and civil unrest? Then, I would agree with you. But, sometimes a little revolution or Government overthrow is a healthy thing. Don't you think?

"of the people, by the people and for the people" Funny. No where in that quote does it say "to the people". As in sticking it "to the people".

I think God's law is more important than any law this little tiny country on this one planet can come up with. But, that's jmho.
 
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