Where are we headed?

THENASH

New member
One quick scan of the subject titles in Legal and Political should explain this questions inspiration.

Take into account the wars in the middle east, the quickly dissolving right to bear arms, the ID cards, etc etc.

What the hell is going on with our country?

I am starting to get a bad feeling that the end result of all the current events is going to be VERY bad.
 
I always kept the thought alive, that no matter how bad things got in this country, I always had the option of moving my daughter out of the states if it got to the point where life here would be to "unsafe" for her. Then it occured to me that closing down our borders would have a kind of "Berlin Wall" effect since we are mostly an isolated nation anyways. Grim images of our future fill my mind when I think about an unarmed populace with Identity tracking cards and government endorsed wiretapping. Mandatory implants to track movement(and eventually, used to incapacitate the insubordinant). I don't think(hope) I'll live to see all these things come to be reality here, but at the rate we're going, I'm almost sure my daughter will.:(
 
We're seeing dark times right now and darker ones to follow but when it's all over we'll emerge a better nation for it. Or at least I hope. :)
 
Yea I've seen so many movies that depict our would-be future and it's scary to think that it may be reality for the next generation.

Bush has a lot to do with it, so does Iraq/Afghanistan affairs, the threat of WMDs in rogue nations, constant inflation, liberal media, anti-guns, youth violence, pedophiles, immigrant regulation.... all combined.

I think I'm gonna move to Canada :eek:
 
We're just following the rise and fall of a nation. I forget the path now, from tyranny to freedom to... ? Whatever, we're heading for totalitarianism. What makes it worse today is the level of technology available, which allows the broad concept of globalism and the micro-concept of direct control over every aspect of individual lives to co-exist. It's possible we're near a true end of freedom, even the concept of such.

Time will tell, but I believe the coming years will be very uncomfortable for many of us.
 
Oh please, people, the sky isn't falling and the world isn't all that much more challenging than it ever has been in the past.
 
Leif-
Since I reached the age of majority, I have seen the following changes:
- I am no longer able to travel by air without showing ID
- I can no longer purchase a firearm without a background check
- I can no longer refuse my name to a Police Officer
- I must ask the government's permission to tuck a pistol under my coat
- I can be imprisoned and held indefinitely, without attorney or charges
- I can be spied on and my phone tapped on the flimsiest of excuses, without ever being notified that such had occurred.
- I can be stopped at random "Papers Please" roadblocks and arrested for failure to wear a safety belt
- I can no longer purchase an airline ticket with cash, without that being reported and, perhaps, investigated
- I can no longer withdraw $10,000 of MY money from MY bank account without that being reported and, perhaps, investigated
- My children can be seized, tazed and prosecuted for no greater "crime" than having a jack knife in their pocket
- My property can be seized for no other reason than somebody committing a drug crime while visiting
- My property can be seized for no other reason than a Highway Officer deciding I had too much property with me
- My property can be condemned and stolen for no other reason than someone with deeper pockets than me making larger political contributions than me
- I can be arrested, on felony charges for a simple lie, that had no consequence to any act or other person
- My home can be invaded in dark of night by armed, masked gunmen screaming obscenities and any attempt to defend my loved ones will be met by justifiable use of force; resulting in the loss of my most valuable freedom- my life.

How's that for losses of freedoms over the course of just 3 decades? Think it's reached a plateau? Think the erosion won't accelerate over the next 4 decades? Think again.

No, you can't argue that our personal freedoms are intact. The stories abound in the daily news. The only thing you can argue is that these are "reasonable" or "necessary" abridgments in the interests of your safety. And that, sir, is all the argument has come down to....Newspeak and Safety; the stuff of which Tyranny is always the end point. The reason: Most Free Men really don't want to be Free in the first place; it frightens them to think they are on their own. And EVERY Government is willing to step into the breach created by those clamoring for LESS freedom.

Sadly, only the tyrannized yearn and fight for Freedom. Most Free Men demand just the opposite: "Security".

That's the legacy of your current political outlook.
Rich
 
Rich Lucibella, you raise some excellent points, many of which I would not dispute. However, I might also add that free men have the luxury to debate the legal, moral, and political decline of the country in public on a web board. As far as I can tell, that freedom has yet to be abridged significantly, at least by any governmental entity.

Let's take a page from a newspaper printed during the 1920s (I don't have any specific one in mind here). What are the headlines? Liquor ... you can't buy it legally, as per an amendment to the constitution. Are you a Communist, anarchist, or even an outspoken labor representative? Careful, the "Red Scare" and J. Edgar Hoover are going to make exercising any of your rights pretty difficult. Black? Good luck getting a seat on a bus full of white people, remember to use the "other" bathroom, and don't complain that the white children go to better public schools than your own (because Plessy v. Ferguson was such a great example of Constitutional jurisprudence). And God hope the year isn't 1929, because it won't matter much what freedoms you feel you have when you're standing in a bread line with an empty stomach and no prospects.

Let's take another trip in the wayback machine, this time to 1861. I really hope you aren't black in that year. You can buy liquor, which is good, because when you realize that the country is about to dissect itself and offer up a generation or so to the greatest tragedy ever experienced within its borders to date, you'll want to drink (not to mention that the Federal government is going to significantly curtail some of your civil rights for the next several years). You won't need to worry about your rights being abridged because of your involvement in a labor movement, because those labor movements haven't developed much strength yet, and you're working 10+ hours days in unsafe conditions alongside 12 year old children. You get an occasional sick day when your TB gets too bad, although you might lose your job as well. If you're Mormon, you can throw religious freedom right out the window - that doesn't apply to you, unless you feel inclined to move to a distant territory.

I could go on, but hopefully I've made my point. This country has faced challenges before, it faces them now, and it will continue to face them in the future. Each time in the past, the nation has risen to meet those challenges, and for the most part come off the better for the challenge. Are there serious threats to the individual rights of citizens at present? Yes. Do they mean that the country is dying? No. They mean we have to work that much harder to hasten their reversal and to prevent just such a scenario. Hand-wringing about nascent totalitarianism is jumping several steps ahead of the game, historically speaking.

You stated:

Most Free Men really don't want to be Free in the first place; it frightens them to think they are on their own.

Then why bother doing any of this? If most free men don't want to be free, why bother continuing to or trying to impose freedom upon them (talk about internal contradictions!), since they'll never appreciate it anyway? If most free men don't want to remain free, then this whole conversation is moot, isn't it, because everybody here is fighting a losing battle in whatever way they propose to fight it? Furthermore, if what you say is true, that puts us in a pretty select, elite class - the "freedom-appreciators" if you will - fighting the battles for the betterment of an already free citizenry that consistently rejects it? Sorry, romantic idea (in the literary sense), but I don't hold my fellow citizens in such low contempt. I might think that we're in a period where a few too many of them are a little too quick to trade security for freedom because they're understandably (yet unjustifiably in many ways) scared of a scary world, and thus make decisions that will be regretted (and hopefully undone) in coming years (who doesn't make bad decisions?), but I think ascribing such a low opinion of the "free men" of this country is no better than the sheeple-slinging that some people regretably spout here. If what you say is at all true, we might as well let the proverbial SHTF right now, because the whole thing was doomed from the start.

Glass half full ... or glass half empty?
 
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Leif-
The point is not that Freedoms ebb and flow. The point is that Control inexorably becomes Centralized at which time there is no Counterbalancing Force to "give back". Your very examples prove as much.

In each of these cases a freedom was "granted" or "returned" to the People after the Central Government usurped the State Governments. Once the State Governments are emaciated, who is left to do battle with the Central government whose abridgments of Human Rights I've sampled above?

Or.....a bit more poignant example:
Name one area of Civil Liberties, at the level of the list posted by me, where ALL Americans have been granted increased freedom in the past 30 years.

Clock's ticking. ;)
Then why bother doing any of this? If most free men don't want to be free, why bother continuing to or trying to impose freedom upon them (talk about internal contradictions!), since they'll never appreciate it anyway?
Because this is one of the obligations of Free Men everywhere. Others spilled their blood so that we could enjoy what we were born to. The least we can do is to Educate, in hopes that our children will not make the mistake of countless societies that came before. What those generations do with that information is on their own heads....what You do with it is on yours.

What we can do is to refuse to "impose" anything on anyone; your generation will inherit the Nation it requests.
Rich
 
I'm not quite sure how the examples I provided can be construed to prove your case as such, in that the examples I cited supposedly demonstrate some sweeping centralization of power in the Federal government at the states' expense; I've heard that argument with respect to some of the desegregation issues, but the others? Prohibition, as codified in a Constitutional amendment no less, was reversed, so things can be undone through legislation, even at that level. One also has to wonder that if the states are such good champions of their citizens, why did the various desegregation activities of the 1950s and 1960s have to be implemented and enforced from a Federal level? I don't buy for a minute that the states look out for their citizens' constitutional rights anymore than the Federal government might - if they did, why do California and Massachusetts (or Delaware for that matter, at least with regard to carry and NFA) have such restrictive gun laws, which most people here regard as an infringement on the 2nd Amendment? If anything, states have shown themselves to be quite aggressive in restricting individual rights, not expanding them or fighting off threats from the Federal level. I might be worried about the unneccesary consolidation of power at a Federal level, but I certainly don't trust the states to protect my rights and interests anymore than their Federal counterparts do.

Turning to your 'poignant clock-ticker', well, no, the record for the past 30 years has been pretty dismal with respect to the individual rights of American citizens, but that's why we're all having this conversation in the first place. I don't think too many people would dispute that. FOIA (far from a perfect system, but something at least) was 1966, and the Roe decision was 1973 IIRC, so that puts them outside your 30 year marker. However, my argument was not that individual freedoms have increased in the past 30 years, but rather that we're in a bad period with respect to some of them, and that needs to change and hopefully will change with work. The ebb and flow is there - you and I, along with most people here, naturally want it to flow rather than ebb. You obviously believe that there is an ebb and flow, that the level of freedom does fluctuate with time, and not always for the better, otherwise why would you continue to operate this portion of the forum? Why would you advocate any RKBA, or any BOR issue, if you truly felt they were lost forever?

If there's an inexorable march toward individual oppression throughout this country's entire history, not just the limited view of the last 30 years, I certainly don't see it. But I don't see lots of things, so it wouldn't be the first time. :-)
 
I don't buy for a minute that the states look out for their citizens' human rights anymore than the Federal government might
Of course they don't. But they're more easily controlled by the Citizenry. That's why we were formed as a Constitutional Republic, not a National Democracy. It was once an elegant experiment in Checks and Balances, but it required a citizenry "jealous" of it's Natural Born Rights.

It's all available in history books. One needs but reach out and read one or two.

Rich
 
Rich

I've read many history books as well (who knows, maybe the same ones) and what I gather from them is that nothing in the current political landscape is any more challenging than that which existed in the past, which provides for me a sense of hope rather than one of despair, something I rather ineloquently tried to express in my original post within this thread.

We might disagree on the tactics, but I think we have the same, or quite similar at least, objectives with respect to the individual rights of American citizens.

Leif
 
Leif-
You are hardly ineloquent. Nor were my comments directed personally; as your ability to rattle off previous abridgments of freedoms was pretty damned facile.

Still, I don't know that we "agree" on our objectives. Mine are simple: "No more compromise!"
;)
Rich
 
The worst is yet to come.

Years ago my mothers side of the family came down from quebec and settled in the states (think 1780 and the last ones in 1890's), but if things keep getting worse I was contemplating moving my wife and kids up there near family. At least in Canada you can get away from the people that try and take your freedoms away (lots of wilderness to get away from it all). Too many people are living like hamsters in a cage and are letting the politicains take away our freedoms.

We need to get out and vote for the few politicians that aren't scum and don't line their wallets with corporate money. Voted for W. because I thought he could make a difference, well he has and it was for the worse.

Too bad we can't clone Regan and put him back in office.
 
Rich,

That's quite a list. Wish I hadn't seen it...

I've had the benefit of living in other countries three times as a civilian. Two are generally considered reasonable places - New Zealand and Switzerland, the third - China - is generally less reasonable. We've got it pretty good here, better than any of the places I've lived. It's not as good as it could be, but it's still better than anywhere I can consider going.
 
"Oh please, people, the sky isn't falling and the world isn't all that much more challenging than it ever has been in the past."

Precisely. I'm not all that old and I can remember things like paying 12.75% for my first mortgage, gas lines, THE entire COLD WAR, THE entire VIETNAM WAR, mortgage rates pushing 20%. Heck, I remember the introduction of the Apple II.

C'mon folks the 1990s bubble is over and it's back to work.

John

P.S. - "No, you can't argue that our personal freedoms are intact." Things change, they always have. The pendulum does swing both ways. Stick around.
 
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