When your trusted carry gun jams....

[Tactical Lever]

Thanks for sharing.

Has anyone ever had a failure from factory new pistol right out the door? From a well-know brand such as Glock?

Pretty common for a semi-auto gun to be a little tight or rough and require some break in. And others are like glass right out of the box.

Then there are the manufacturing defects that slip through. I have a well liked Uberti revolver that that needed to be sent back to have it's cylinder honed due to very hard ejection. No problems since; they fixed it quick, and now it's a very good gun. Same thing happened to me buying a Savage rifle. Bought off a ticked off guy who didn't want to mess with it. Fixed that one myself.

 

[AK103K]

So you believe limp wristing a gun won't cause a jam at all?

Limp wristing has nothing to do with the wrist. Its allowing the gun to move rearwards with recoil that causes the problem. How hard is that to understand?

Even with no grip on the gun, and an unlocked wrist and elbow, as long as there is mass behind the gun (the mass being your arm, and that arm not pulling the gun back under recoil), the gun will work.

From what you keep posting, Im thinking youre all book/internet learning and no real life experience to back it up, especially with a Glock. Maybe you should give it a try and get back to us.

 

[shafter]

Every round fired is one round closer to malfunction. Food for thought.

 

[45_auto]

Even with no grip on the gun, and an unlocked wrist and elbow, as long as there is mass behind the gun (the mass being your arm, and that arm not pulling the gun back under recoil), the gun will work.

I've taught pistol classes to 250 pound body builders with arms that have more mass than my whole body who have no problems with a steel framed pistol, but have multiple problems with limp wristing a Glock. Seen the same thing happen with 90 pound women. A low, loose grip that allows the gun to move AND rotate easily will regularly induce a malfunction. Going to a higher grip and tightening the grip has cured it every time.

Most steel framed pistols have enough mass in the receiver to minimize the consequences of a loose grip.

Do you have access to the internet? Do you believe the guy in this video is faking the malfunctioning Glock 19 at about the 2:30 mark? It appears that a little more real-life experience with a more varied group of shooters would be to your benefit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Uqtz2asE4

 

[Pond James Pond]

So you believe limp wristing a gun won't cause a jam at all?

I'm sorry but that is wrong.

Never said that.

I simply said that, based on what AK103K described, it seems that getting his Glock to misfeed/jam due to a lack of grip is actually quite hard to do, which in turn implies, therefore that it would get even harder as grip improves.

That is it.

I know that limp-wristing can be a problem. I've seen it on a Tanfoglio fired by a young woman and I think I may have experienced it myself with a Ruger MkIII no less. But I'd never had it on my old G19 nor my current CZ.

I can also imagine that, knowing this is a weakness in semis, manufacturers will try to make guns less susceptible.

Put it another way: please explain AK's own results if limp-wristing is such a certain failure generator....

 

[Skans]

When a gun "jams", I clear the jam and keep shooting. If it seems to be a recurring thing, then I spray the bore/barrel with some cleaner, run a bore snake through it, wipe it down and see if that solves the problem. If that doesn't fix it then it will get a detailed strip and cleaning when I get home, and possibly a spring or two replaced.

At least when a semi-auto jams, I know how to quickly clear the jam and keep shooting. When a revolver gets out of time, I suppose I can tell the BG: "WAIT! I need to send this back to the factory and 6 months later I'm gonna shoot you!"

 

[mavracer]

Limp wristing has nothing to do with the wrist.

That's funny right there.

A low, loose grip that allows the gun to move AND rotate easily will regularly induce a malfunction.

Didn't you get the memo, the web of your hand and where it's placed isn't really part of "grip"

Even with absolutely no grip, just letting the gun sit on the web of my hand

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

That's strange. I've fired countless rounds of Winchester Ranger T 127gr +p+ ammo in my Glocks over the course of almost a decade. Never had an issue with that load. Maybe just a bad round to be honest.

 

[AK103K]

Do you believe the guy in this video is faking the malfunctioning Glock 19 at about the 2:30 mark?

His videos are what got me started trying to have the problem. I had a couple of discussions with him at the time too.

If you listen to what he says, he "allows the gun to come up and back" when it recoils, which is what Ive been saying all along. He works at getting it to happen, and its very obvious in his first video, when he holds the gun sideways, using two fingers.

One thing I did learn from trying to get the Glock to malfunction was, the Colt Combat Commander I was using as a control, had more troubles with no grip, because the grip safety was not being engaged and the gun would not fire until I readjusted my grip. I carried that gun for over 25 years and never had a problem like that until I tried to prove the Glock was the problem. Then again, I normally didnt shoot the 1911 in that manner either.

It appears that a little more real-life experience with a more varied group of shooters would be to your benefit.

Ive been around awhile, and Ive taught quite a few shoot over the years, and rarely encountered the issue, even with Glocks. In fact, the few memorable times I did encounter it, was with things like High Powers and SIG's. My one son had the problem with his HP, and once I showed him what he was doing wrong, it stopped. He was 6 or so when that happened too. One of my sons girlfriends was having the problem with most of the autos she was trying to shoot, including my P226, and again, once the problem was explained to her, it went away.

I still say this is a shooter issue and not the fault of the gun. If you think different, thats cool, stay away from what you cant shoot, and all will be good.

That's funny right there.

Still dont get it, eh?

Didn't you get the memo, the web of your hand and where it's placed isn't really part of "grip"

I see you still dont understand this too. I was simply saying, I had no grip whatsoever on the gun. I wasnt squeezing it, holding it, no manner of restraining the gun, other than it just resting on my hand, and the trigger finger keeping it from flying off when it was shot. Gun still worked every time too. Since you really seem to not have an understanding of whats going on here, maybe you should give it a try, instead of trying to convince us that youre right.

 

[mavracer]

Still dont get it, eh?

Oh I get it you will argue semantics till the keys fall off your keyboard to defend your beloved Glocks.

I wasnt squeezing it, holding it, no manner of restraining the gun, other than it just resting on my hand, and the trigger finger keeping it from flying off when it was shot.

Except for that whole holding the web of your hand against the frame "restraining" it's rearward movement. Just that one element of "grip" that is a key when dealing with "limp wristing" the gun.

 

[AK103K]

Oh I get it you will argue semantics till the keys fall off your keyboard to defend your beloved Glocks.

Not at all. Glocks, SIG's, Colts, whatever, Ive owned/own and shot/shoot pretty much all of them, and never had the issue with any of them unless I tried or worked at making it happen.

The semantics thing seems to be all you.

Except for that whole holding the web of your hand against the frame "restraining" it's rearward movement. Just that one element of "grip" that is a key when dealing with "limp wristing" the gun.

Hmmm, isnt that what Ive been saying all along?

So youre readily admitting that you have to hold the gun in a manner that is not normal or realistic to get it to malfunction, and it doesnt normally happen, unless its shooter induced. Am I getting that right?

That, and the fact that you do have to keep the gun from moving rearward with recoil, thus preventing the problem.

Thanks, youve just proved my point all along.

As far as what "restraining" means, or at least what I was referring to, since you want to pick apart every word. I was referring to not keeping the gun "tight" in my hand, and allowing it to move around while it was fired. I wasnt actually "gripping" or "holding on to the gun", it was just resting there. Fingers werent tight around the grip, wrist and elbow were not locked, all I did, was not allow my body parts to move rearwards with the gun under recoil.

Keeping the gun from moving rearward under recoil, even with "no grip" is what prevents the short stroking. Which you do seem to understand, but continue to want to argue about. Whatever dude. Id still suggest you actually get out and try it yourself.

 

[45_auto]

AK103, perhaps it's just because they are so disconnected, but I find your posts to be very confusing.

For example, first you claim in post #34:

the only way I was able to get it to happen, was hold the gun at an angle perpendicular to my arm, and holding it with two fingers (thumb and trigger finger). Even then, it only happened maybe one on four or five times, and sometimes longer.

Then in post 49 you claim:

My one son had the problem with his HP, and once I showed him what he was doing wrong, it stopped. He was 6 or so when that happened too. One of my sons girlfriends was having the problem with most of the autos she was trying to shoot, including my P226, and again, once the problem was explained to her, it went away.

Were your 6 year old son and the girlfriend shooting the guns with 2 fingers held perpendicular to their arm? What were they doing to cause the malfunctions and exactly what did you tell them that made them stop?

 

[mavracer]

Hmmm, isnt that what Ive been saying all along?

No it's not. My first post that I quoted you the quote reads

Limp wristing happens when you allow the gun to move rearwards with recoil, and is a shooter issue, not a gun issue. Its not because of "grip". A 26 is no different than anything else in that respect.

wrist and elbow were not locked, all I did, was not allow my body parts to move rearwards with the gun under recoil.

You simply can not do both either your wrists and elbows are locked and you don't allow the web of your hand to move or your wrists and elbows are not locked which would allow the gun to move the web of your hand.

Maybe you just can't be objective?

 

[Tactical Lever]

I understand why you might want to have a couple mags of +P+ lying around, and even run a few through it. But I wonder if after 5000 if you aren't changing the geometry on a couple parts. A Glock will probably run many times that number of the lower pressure stuff.

So are you running higher rate springs, or anything to compensate?

 

[TraumaRN]

I recommend carrying 2 guns for a back-up and/or hand-off to a trusted friend/ family member. You never know when the best weapon or ammo will fail.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Well shot the 26 today after the slide disassembly and extractor cleaning.

With Winchester 115 fmj, right on the money, ejects in a nice pile to my right & rear, and not a bobble. With Winchester T series +P+ 127 gr JHPs ejects strait above my head and to the rear (but no where near me) sort of erratically, but groups great. With Federal HST +P shot dead on, ejected just like the FMJ Winchester (which was perfect, little pile to my right and rear.) Shot over 75 rounds.

No problems at all. The HST is now THE load I'll use in it.

I also shot my Glock 43 with same ammo except no +p+ stuff. Works perfect to. HST is THE load for it. Shot 40 rounds (second outing for it.)

And my Ruger LCP (paid $161 bucks in all, stainless slide) shot S&B with just two jams, Winchester FMJ was perfect. Shot maybe 90 rounds. First time I've shot it. Winchester FMJ-flat point is THE load for it.

So, after cleaning them all up, soon I'll order more ammo from Ammunition Depot (HST is only 25 bucks per 50!) and away I go.

Still packing my Glock 32 in .357 Sig with CCW Gold Dots & S&W 642 .38 for now till ammo comes in for the other CCW guns.

So no hardship! Fun day it was!

Deaf

 

[AK103K]

Were your 6 year old son and the girlfriend shooting the guns with 2 fingers held perpendicular to their arm? What were they doing to cause the malfunctions and exactly what did you tell them that made them stop?

The two finger thing is what the boy in the video was doing with a Glock and what I was trying to replicate, and in a few instances did, but it didnt happen to me, anywhere near as often as it did for him.

My son and my sons girlfriend were moving their arms rearward with recoil. They werent shooting Glocks. As soon as I showed them what was happening, and they made the effort to stop doing it, the problem went away, and they didnt have any more troubles.

Totally different instances too, over 20 years of so. This all didnt happen on the same day.

Does that clear it up?

You simply can not do both either your wrists and elbows are locked and you don't allow the web of your hand to move or your wrists and elbows are not locked which would allow the gun to move the web of your hand.

Sure you can. Id again suggest instead of arguing about it, you actually go give it a try. Or not, and just keep at it.

The gun moves in your hand when youre not gripping it in a normal manner, as Ive been saying all along. As long as you keep the mass of your arm behind the gun (ie, dont hold it sideways with two fingers) and dont allow your arm to move rearward in recoil, the gun will cycle. Just because your joints are unlocked, doesent mean you have to let them move rearward with recoil. But AGAIN, its obvious youve never tried, and seem to be afraid to (Todd forbid Im right ) or we wouldnt be having this discussion.

Maybe you just can't be objective?

Sure I can. I was trying to replicate the problem since Id never had it happen, and in a few cases, was able to, but only when the gun was either held in an unrealistic manner, and/or, I allowed my arm to move rearward with recoil.

Maybe "you" should try and be objective and do your own homework and prove it right or wrong, instead of constantly repeating something you read in internet pass alongs. I made the effort. Cant help it you dont like the answer. Your raving isnt going to change my actual results, no matter how bad you want them to, so chop, chop, you'd better get to it.

 

[jad0110]

I agree with AK, it isn't so much limp wristing as limp forearming as I call it.

But, I must also be a lot more talented than AK in getting polymer frame autos to mess up due to limp forearming, as I can get Glocks and XDs to choke 50% to 75% of the time when doing it .

And that is with a firm grip. For safety reasons, I don't loosen my grip. Basically, I loosen my elbow and and shoulder and let the gun come back under recoil, as a simulation of injury. And yes, a 50 to 75% failure rate is what I observed. Steel framed autos like my 1911 and CZ-75 were much less susceptible to this treatment, and I'm guessing my revolvers wouldn't be effected at all .

At least when a semi-auto jams, I know how to quickly clear the jam and keep shooting. When a revolver gets out of time, I suppose I can tell the BG: "WAIT! I need to send this back to the factory and 6 months later I'm gonna shoot you!"

Thing is, you can usually detect when a revolver is going out of time. It generally doesn't happen instantly. There are early warning signs, such as lead spitting and worsened accuracy (never had a revolver go out of time BTW). And generally speaking, the revolver platform is a little easier to see evidence of issues beginning than the semi platform. Generally.

I've had some auto jams that would have been fight stoppers, so it can happen on that platform too (the dreaded two point jam, double feeds, sheared ejectors, broken extractors, etc). Granted, some of those can be cleared, but they take more time than a simple tap rack drill. Not saying it couldn't happen, knock on wood, but I've never had a revolver completely fail to function, and I shoot them far more frequently than autos.

 

[mavracer]

Maybe "you" should try and be objective and do your own homework and prove it right or wrong, instead of constantly repeating something you read in internet pass alongs.

I have.
In post 30 you posted
"I dont know what other mechanical issues might be involved"

And it's quite clear that that is indeed a fact.
But here's some
recoil spring tension
slide weight
frame weight (including mag weight and rounds on board)
amount of recoil produced by round.

 

[AK103K]

And it's quite clear that that is indeed a fact.
But here's some
recoil spring tension
slide weight
frame weight (including mag weight and rounds on board)
amount of recoil produced by round.

So how does all that apply to all my (12 or so) box stock, supposedly "broken" Glocks, that continue to work without issue?

What am I doing wrong, that they do in fact work, contrary to what you say should be happening?

Ill let you keep trying to figure it out. I dont see the point in going on with this any longer. Youre obviously right, and Im obviously wrong, so you win, and Ill just keep blasting away with those broken guns you dont like, happy in my ignorance.