When to use lethal force?

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If you are justified in shooting, then shooting seems a natural extension of the action.
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I'm not sure what that means.

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If you are justified in drawing your gun and shooting, you must be in fear of your life, or serious injury. It just seems to me that practice is drawing and firing, as all in one smooth action. To try to break this process down into digital steps seems incongruent with that process. It seems to me if I have time to not shoot in order to ameliorate the situation, then it really is not yet to that point where I am truly in fear of my life. I might be scared, but I have yet to accept that my life is on the line.If I reach that point it seems obvious that it is time to draw ... and if I have practiced squeezing the trigger as part of that draw in order to place my shot center of mass, it all seems as one smooth action that is done without thinking during the process ... it is m
'muscle memory' as some put it here ... if I am understanding the term. The 21 foot rule seems to be the point that a threat is considered very serious to ones life if confronted by an armed assailant. It seems said that it is difficult to draw and fire before being cut in the best of cases. Why would one pause, even a microsecond, to see if the threat has altered his/her path ?
 
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i've been arrested for felony aggravated assault before and i didn't even draw my firearm, (wasn't concealed) but it came down to my word against theirs, two FEMALES broke into my house in the middle of the night, and assaulted me, i didn't feel my life was threatened, but didn't want the assailants to get their claws into the 357 hanging out of my pajama pants. i took a beating (not into hitting girls) and i managed to escape the house and called 911, when the sheriffs arrived 25 minutes later, they arrested me because the two girls (whom were still in my home) said they felt threatened because they knew i had a gun and attacked me. (with beer bottles and shoes) they also told the police that they were invited to my house. (once again, my word against theirs) anyway, i went to jail for two days, and the girls were left to rob me blind in my own home, i returned home 48 hours later with an empty house and neighbors saying they saw a uhaul truck in my driveway the day before. all that being said, probably should have drawn my firearm because in the end, it didn't even matter. they saw the gun and used that for their statement/defense. probably not helpful here, but just sayin'.... now i carry a knife along with my sidearm,.... just in case... ;)
 
But you do not need to fire in order to use that exemption
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It does not say that.

Virginia does NOT use legislative history to interpret laws.
The Virginia courts use the law as it is written, and assume the general assembly pout everything needed into the statute.

Adding ANYTHING to the statute is risky.

If you draw on someone you had better be withing the law to shoot them at that point.
 
Scenario 3: You walk down to the corner store late in the evening to get your fix. For me it's diet pepsi and some chips (I don't smoke). You have your ccw and you've had a decent amount of training. You feel very confident with your weapon at your side. Besides it's just another day. You walk into the convenience store and walk towards the back where the soda machine is. You noticed when you walked in that there were no cars out front and the only person you see inside is the cashier. You get your soda and head over to the chips. You here the dingaling sound of the front door and as you look over a man is screaming at the cashier and racking his pistol gripped shotgun. He points the shotgun at the cashier and screams "give me all the f'n money" So he obviously has ability and he's shown intent.
The question is - is this in your limit? Let's say it's 20 feet between you and him. He's lunging at the cashier with his shotgun and moving quite eraticaly. Shooting 20' free standing at a stationary target is not easy. Now a moving target that has a 12guage would be very difficult. This is where it's very important to understand your limit. He can swing that shotgun at you very quick and he only has to get close - It's a shotgun. I can see where depending on different variables at that time (cover and concealment) you may not decide to pull that weapon even though he has ability and has shown intent. I wouldn't feel very protected behind a shelf of Doritos

Golckcompact- I just took the class here in Minn. Under this senerio we were told. If you pulled your gun ,you are going to jail. The senario has to many varaibles to it. One,Casheir gives BG money -situation resolved,no one killed.
By pulling your gun,you now put BG in a win lose senerio that you created by pulling your gun. Yes i would reccomend checking with your states as said before each state is different.
 
4runnerman

In your current situation, dial 911 tell the dispatcher where you are, and mute the phone and leave it on, good evidence for the police. Draw your weapon and keep it hidden from the BG. Then hide, if my wife's with me (we'll I maybe a MCP) she's behind me when I hide, with her revolver hidden also.
 
I completely agree that if you carry you need to understand the laws in your state.

If this is true in Minn. It's unfortunate.
I just took the class here in Minn. Under this senerio we were told. If you pulled your gun ,you are going to jail.
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I don't see how it would be a slam shut case. I could see how things could go terribly wrong giving the 20' shot on a guy who has a shotgun. But if the distance was shorter and within my limts it should be considered self defense of another. Still intimadating though when it's against a pistol gripped shotgun. Hope I never see that day. :eek:

Had to edit to add this:

By pulling your gun,you now put BG in a win lose senerio that you created by pulling your gun.
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I don't feel like I created a bad situation. The guy has a weapon aimed at an inocent person. He's showing (opportunity, ability, and intent) he created the bad situation.
 
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I think some people do not understand that they are never legally required to pull a trigger. Being legally justified to shoot someone does not mean you legally must shoot someone.

pax
 
Glockcompact i should clarify to make sure i say this right.Sometimes the keyboard don't say what i meant:o. Our senerio was

You have a CCW, You walk into a 7-11 store and see a cashier behind counter beat up and bloody,person on outside of counter pointing gun to her head.Question was-Do you draw. I answered yes. Was told i will go to jail if i draw. Reason being,I just walked into situation happening,I have no idea if said cashier is bad person,if person brandishing gun is law officer. I can not assume what the picture looks like to be the facts. After class i did go and talk to trainer about this senerio he put me in. His answer was.No one said that this was going to be easy and with out all the facts never draw your pistol. I do not agree with that answer at all,My response to him was
So in that case i could wait to see if it was BG with gun and watch him shoot her in head and live with the fact that i could have stopped it,but by law was not allowed to. I left that class with a whole new (sorry to say) disrespect for the law then i have ever had. Protecting a third party is only permissable if you have the facts, That being did third party start situation,did third party prevoke situation. With out all the info we were told do not draw your gun ever. Hope i said this all right ..
 
runnerman, I am not going to say you can or can't to your scenario. You described a good scenario. I wouldn't feel comfortable saying freeze to the guy and hoping for the best, yet I am sure many LEO's could do this routinely.

If the scenario happened to me I am already(its innate and automatic with me but not for everyone) figuring out to the best of my ability if this guy is alone.

I am not saying I'd do this; in fact I am not saying this, but I would not be panicking enough where I wouldn't be unable to aim and kill him dead on the spot. Some people would be shaking and just wouldn't be able to do it. Not counting the shaking, nerves can do terrible things. Example: when someone panicks because they can't swim it takes 30 seconds tops for them to be underwater for the last time.

All this being said, it depends on the state if you end up killing this armed robberer. I guess one just has to do what they feel is right and/or is warranted at any given time. Many of these robberies end with a deceased employee. I do agree one should always just cough up the cash if robbed while being a cashier. I do know that things become much more dicey when you make your presence known, and I think that is why some oldtimers say, "shoot and ask questions later". If that same scenario happened to me(runnermans), I think I would be ready to take him out yet watch him leave the scene(always ready). If this man fired that shotgun at the cashier than that would definately be the last shot he ever takes. It would all depend though on what I would do.
 
It comes down to how well you can handle your self with out your weapon. If you have the means to defend your self hand to hand than do so. If a retreat is the best way than you dont need a weapon (and no a retreat dont mean your chicken). But if you cant fend of the attacker or get away from the situation than you need to increase the force you use to protect your self acordingly. I have never pulled my weapon in defence and if im blessed I will never need to..... but i have had justifyed cause to pull it out and used less force to keep safe. the game is safty not who is the badest in town.
 
Pax
I think some people do not understand that they are never legally required to pull a trigger. Being legally justified to shoot someone does not mean you legally must shoot someone.
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Exactly.

I agree with you. It was the way I was trained.

Also, just as you have said in your earlier post, as soon as the threat stops - you stop. End of story.

Could be three BG's and you shot one and the other two ran. What ever scenario you want to come up with it doesn't matter. When the threat stops you stop. If your so blindingly fast on the draw that givin any amount of threats, or givin any amount of distance, and givin any type of scenario, that the BG's won't have the chance to physically stop. Then I need to find out where you recieved your training cause I need some school'n. ;)
 
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Posted by Hook686: Why would one pause, even a microsecond, to see if the threat has altered his/her path ?
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Guess this from pax didn't register:

Hook,

I didn't suggest pausing. I simply said, Never fire unless you are justified in firing. Your purpose is to stop the assault. If your action of reaching toward the gun stops the assailant, you've accomplished your goal. If your act of drawing the gun does the job, you're done. If your act of firing the gun does it, you stop then. If your first shot doesn't stop the assailant, and your second one doesn't, but the third one does -- that's when you stop.
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I doubt that anone here can grab the weapon, draw from concealment, present the weapon, aim and fire in even a few microseconds, and if you have your eyes where you should, you should be able to see what the assailant is doing.

If the facts of the situation support a reasonable belief that one is in imminent danger and that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect against that danger, one may draw for the purpose of shooting the assailant. However, if the threat dissipates when one reaches for the gun, or draws, or presents the weapon, or aims, deadly force is no longer justified.
 
You know oldmarksman I agree ... if the threat turns away, or disipates, while I am reaching for my weapon (I have already concluded my life is about to be taken), then I hold back ... if I have my hand on my revolver and am retrieving it from concealment and the threat turns away, or disipates, then I hold back ... however if I am in the process of bring the revolver up to point shoot in protection of my life, I do not believe I have the thought time, reaction time, or freedom of skill to avoid a discharge. You I think the time from bringing the revolver to bare on the target and discharging a round is measured in micro seconds at this point (maybe a thousand, or two). It strikes me as very fast when I practice. How long does it take you to point your pistol downrange and squeeze the trigger (from the ready position) ? Pause at that point and I think you have defeated yourself.
 
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Posted by Hook686: however if I am in the process of bring the revolver up to point shoot in protection of my life, I do not believe I have the thought time, reaction time, or freedom of skill to avoid a discharge.
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That is one of the things that I worry about myself.

The others are,

  • not drawing quickly enough,
  • hitting a bystander, and
  • facing an evidentiary situation, including ambiguous or negative eyewitness testimony, that could put my defense of justifcation in jeopardy.

One can practice drawing, one can practice shooting and try to program himself to consider the backstop, and try very hard to program himself to not shoot unless it is absolutely necessary to do so.

Regarding the last item, there's only one mitigation that I can think of: make every possible effort to stay away from situations that might require the use of deadly force. That should help with the other three issues, also.
 
I didn't read every single post in this thread, am not a lawyer, and won't even pretend to know the laws of every state in the US.

What I will say is that with firearms ownership comes enormous responsibility. We must know the laws of ownership in our individual states, know when and where we can carry, and know what situations we are allowed to use our firearms. We must also be aware that even in a legal shooting you are not protected from lawsuits and other potential legal problems. Always be aware of your situations, practice with your firearms, know what is in the background should you need to use your firearm, but try to flee the scene if possible.

We have a major winter storm moving into the are this week and may be running on generator power. Should someone try to take the generator from the back yard, I will not be opening fire on them to save it. My gun cost more than that generator and by the time the police take that from me, the "victims" get lawyered up and start the law suits, I would rather buy a new generator and avoid the hassle.
 
:eek:
And for the most part if you are within your rights to draw you are within your rights to shoot.
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:eek:

Please inform us as to the legal guidelines you have used to arrive at the above is conclusion, I have never heard it expressed before in my lifetime. :confused:

Drawing and shooting are two very different things, if you draw and a bad guy drops his weapon and stops being a threat and you then shoot him, you will be going to jail if there are honest witnesses. Drawing and shooting are not equivalent, nor is the justification to actually use deadly force necessarily commensurate with the justification to draw. Drawing is not using deadly force, shooting someone most definitely is using it.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
ever wonder about those "real" situations(it happens in movies too) where someone draws and turns and almost kills their friend, wife, innocent person, etc? How did they not shoot because it was definately a close call in every case? It can happen late in the night with spouses as one example.

I think most know Wild Bill was unable to stop himself from turning, drawing(unless was already drawn), and killing his deputy with one fatal shot. It can go both ways too, but Wild Bill probably already had his firearm drawn in that famous incident.

Pulling the trigger is seperate from drawing a weapon even if there isn't much time in between.
 
was unable to stop himself from turning, drawing(unless was already drawn), and killing his deputy
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Don't you mean he turned, drew his weapon and fired without properly assessing the situation and identifying his target first and not that he could not stop himself. Somene saying I could not stop myself, in a situation like that, is basically saying he did not assess properly and did not identify that at which he was about to shoot, or in other words had assumed that the guy behind them was an armed adversary.

All the best,
GB
 
Please inform us as to the legal guidelines you have used to arrive at the above is conclusion, I have never heard it expressed before in my lifetime.
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You can only threaten deadly force if faced with a threat that allows its use (death if grave bodily harm).

If you are faced with the imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm you are also justified in using lethal force.

A lot of folks have watched to many movies and TV shows.
These incidents tend to happen very quickly.

If you point a gun at someone and say "Give me your money" you have met all the requirements that allow deadly force to be used against you.

You are not required to draw and think about it, or give a warning.
You can draw and shoot.

If you want to play Mexican standoff and hope the other guy gives up, go for it.

If the situation exists that you can threaten deadly force it exists to allow its use.

We are not the police.
We are not there to detain the bad guy.

Our purpose is to defend ourselves.

Threaten my life and I may very well respond in ways you may not like.
 
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