When They Say Yard, do They Mean Feet?

some people probably mean yard when they say yard.

some people may say yard but mean feet.

why does it matter. who cares if they know or don't know.
 
Japle, you're absolutely right. These guys have taken so much time perfecting their art. We humans are amazing things, we can train ourselves to do amazing things. I mean for me, Todd Jarret blew my mind when I saw him for the first time. I always thought "there's no way anyone can shoot like that" but this guy was shoot at 20 yards, with a Para .45 ( stock might I add, no target sights ) and nailed these targets about 2-3 a second. That's amazing. And I saw it with my own eyes. You can absolutely train yourself to do amazing things with the proper instruction and good time.
 
Basically, any International class shooter could shoot groups under 2" on an indoor 25 yd range on demand. So can the top USPSA shooters. Brian Enos has stressed for years that you should be able to shoot very good to excellent groups on demand if you expect to be successful in competition.
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I agree whole-heartedly. But what percentage of handgun shooters fall into the "International class" category. I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done.

IMNSHO, the reason most shooters think 2" groups are nearly impossible is that they've never had proper instruction and haven't paid their dues with thousands of hours of dryfire and careful work on the range. They buy a 9mm or .45 as their first gun and don't learn trigger control, follow-through and calling the shot. A few hours a week with an accurate pellet gun, learning to put ALL their shots on a 1" paster at 20' would take them a long way toward those impossible groups.
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I don't think it impossible or even nearly impossible. I just don't think shooting 2" groups at 25 yards is "normal". At least not normal outside of competitive circles. If you picked any random range on any random Saturday and set up a bunch of targets at 25 yards what percentage of the shooters there would turn in a 2" group? Not most shots in 2", but real 2" groups.
 
wow this is just nit picking' now. Why is everyone so concerned with such little terminology and stuff? It seems like people go so far out of their way and spend so much to time convince each other of something so small.. Not trying to start anything but I think this has gotten a little ridiculous
 
I've read enough gunrag articles that feature stock, factory guns that shoot 1" groups at 25 yards, that I often wonder if every gun I own, and those owned by all of my friends, are defective? Two of my buddies and I were practicing for a very odd stage that we'll be facing at a USPSA match next month - shooting strong-hand and weak-hand from prone. I had never even attempted either before a practice run, and we took the opportunity to sight-in at 40 yards, as that's where the stage starts. I was shooting purely for accuracy, no pressure, and the best I could do was about 4". My friends, Master and Grand Master class competitors, could do no better. That would translate into maybe 3" groups at 25 yards. We all shoot high-end custom pistols that I would expect to be capable of excellent mechanical accuracy. I was really disappointed when I could shoot only 4" rested groups with my Springfield G.I. .45 at 25 yards, but maybe that's the best I'm capable of, regardless of the gun's accuracy? Or, could it be something else?
 
Japle,

That IHMSA stuff fascinates me and I think some of the things they develop in those competitions benefit all of us. I have never tried it, in fact I have never even watched one of their matches. But my old boss, who gave me some advice when I bought my first centerfire handgun, used to compete in that. I was surprised when he was telling me about shooting targets with a 44 mag at 200 meters. I asked him if people could actually hit something that far away with a revolver and his response was "of course you can HIT them, that's not hard; the hard part is knocking them over."

He showed me a few very basic things about shooting a 44 magnum that have been helpful to me even though I never shot in competition. He showed me how they lay down on their backs in one version of their competition and lay the barrel alongside their ankle basically, while holding their heads up with their off hand. I tried it a few times and was amazed at how accurately I could shoot my long barreled revolver with that stance. Granted you don't always have the time to do that when hunting in the field, but if you do have the time to take that stance, then it's not a big deal to hit a 5" target at 100 yards. Suddenly, the whole idea of handgun hunting becomes a lot more practical.

I applaud all those shooters who develop these techniques and pass along some of their knowledge to the rest of us.
 
I've read enough gunrag articles that feature stock, factory guns that shoot 1" groups at 25 yards,
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You would be surprised what most factory guns can do from a Ransom Rest using a scope to line up on the target.

The Ransom Rest is attached to a wooden base with a place to solidly mount a scope.
The base is then clamped to the shooting bench.
With the gun clamped i the rest, the scope allows for very accurate sighting.
 
I think alot of these fellers are the same guys that think MOA is 1" at 10 yards... and easily confuse yards and feet if it's to their benefit. Also, I think shooting falls in line with fish tales and "that girl at the bar" stories... If they think you'll buy it, why not try to sell it? No one really wants to admit to 4" groups at 75 feet, even though that's good enough for center mass every time.
 
You would be surprised what most factory guns can do from a Ransom Rest using a scope to line up on the target.

The Ransom Rest is attached to a wooden base with a place to solidly mount a scope.
The base is then clamped to the shooting bench.
With the gun clamped i the rest, the scope allows for very accurate sighting.
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I've also heard it's possible to outshoot a Ransom Rest, if the gun doesn't have a fixed barrel, as the rest is clamped to the frame and the barrel is more closely aligned with the slide; that is, aligning the sights consistently is more important than aligning the frame consistently. I read that gunsmith Austin Behlert made a scope mount that fit the contours of a pistol slide, so that after firing a shot from the machine rest, he could drop the scope on the top of the gun to confirm that the slide and barrel were indeed still aimed at the intended target. If necessary, he would then make adjustments to the rest, so that the barrel was always aligned on the aiming point.
 
Accuracy of the gun, not of the shooter.:D

Usually from a rest, not off-hand.

Count me among the skeptical, at least from what I see at my local range (and that includes my own targets).
 
Figure a typical traffic lane is 11-ft wide. A pair of them is 22-ft or just about 7.5 yards. Add 5-6 feet for gutters & curbs and guess what? You're at 30-ft
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not to nit pick but the street width is 'supposed to be' (not always but often) 32 ft. thats the equivalent of two rods. a common engineering measurement...

i just posted 2 targets on the "lead in glocks" thread. they were two handed (weaver stance) at about 18 yards. was it exact? i dont know but the benches on our range are moveable and were set up at 50' which is 16.1 yard. i was 2-3 paces behind the bench (i had the the others on the range behind me so it wasnt unsafe) which was about 3 paces forward of the 25 yard line (75 feet)...

bullseye shooters who are on top shoot of their game 1"-2" groups at 50 yards all the time. in fact they will usually clean the target (all 10s and Xs)...
 
One thing to always pay attention to when looking at groupings is the manner in which they were fired. I always try to make it very clear in my posts which groups were fired slow and steady with support and which ones were fired off hand. :)
 
Originally posted by Sport45
I don't think it impossible or even nearly impossible. I just don't think shooting 2" groups at 25 yards is "normal". At least not normal outside of competitive circles. If you picked any random range on any random Saturday and set up a bunch of targets at 25 yards what percentage of the shooters there would turn in a 2" group? Not most shots in 2", but real 2" groups.
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You're right. It's not "normal". We've all seen guys at the range who can't hit the ground 3 times out of 5. Once you get to the high "Expert" and Master" levels of competition, though, it's pretty common.

I think the average shooter can qualify as "Expert" in IDPA. It's a matter of getting the basics down and getting enough of the correct practice. Getting the "Master" rating is a different story. You have to go beyond the "basics" for that.

The reason the "average" shooter gets 6-8" groups at 25 yds is, he doesn't know what the heck he's doing. His trigger control sucks. He blinks when he shoots. He can't call his shots. He doesn't have the ability to watch the sights during recoil. He doesn't know what "follow-through" means.

Want to shoot 2" groups at 25 yds? Get on Brian Enos' site and buy his book. Buy a good pellet pistol (the Daisy 717 for instance) and shoot 50 shots per day for a few months. Call every shot and then look at the target to see how you did.

It's worth the trouble.
 
I have 50 year old eyes and it is not that the target looks far away it is the specific area I'm trying to hit that looks like it's in the next city. I tried shooting @ 25yds last week. The shots all landed in an area the size of my fully extended hand and i am an average shooter. This is a skill I plan to start working on as a new challenge. I normally shoot from 7 to 15 yards each outing.
 
Even at the range, some dude said he was gonna shoot at 50 yards and he brought it to 50' instead.
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Apparently this particular individual is lacking in basic math skills. So, to answer your question, yes and umm..yes?

Y yards = Y feet X3 no matter how you cut it... (not the prettiest equation, but you get the gist)



Lord help the man that thinks 25 yards is a long ways!
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Well, when shooting .45 ACP it can seem like it..for me anyway (regarding consistency + speed). But, I still manage 3" to 4" groups (heck, Ive only shot about 800 rounds or so between 3 handguns ;)), so I guess this will suffice for now. Im still trying to learn how to consistently put'em where I aim 'em.

Besides, for HD, anything beyond 25 yards seems a bit unnecessary to me.
 
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I'm not a particularly good shot I don't think, but I generally hit close to where I'm aiming...

My standard target of choice for lazy Saturdays at the range are cheapo 8" paper plates. The kind you buy 200 of at Walmart for 3 or 4 bucks. Hey, I'm cheap....If I go to the indoor range I buy the nice sillouette targets there to shoot. If I'm at my club and have a choice, it's the cheap option.

With my bigger guns I can hold 2-3" at 25 yards if I'm on my game. If I've been away from regular shooting for a couple months I may be a little "off" and have to work my way back. I carry a mousegun most days though, and strive for within the 8" paper plate to 25 yards. Again, most days when I'm "on" I can hold this level of accuracy without much trouble.

A recent group I shot with my LCR, on the first outing with it actually, was about 4 1/2 or 5" at 25 yards.

Bottom line though is that if you only shoot at 7-10 yards and don't press yourself to improve, you won't. Push your limits and see what happens. Kinda like lifting weights. Gotta push the heavy weight to be able to push the heavy weight.
 
Actual target fired in competition last year at 25 yds. I saw this shot. 10 shots. Slow fire, won 1st place. The only thing was this was shot with a
muzzleloading pistol and the shooter was 60.
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